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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 8, 2006 12:10:17 GMT -5
My santha has recently developed a "clicking" noise yet is relatively new... it is rather annoying, but doesn't appear to impair functionality. It sounds like plastic that's just barely touching on each rotation.
When the machine is on, the clicking is pronounced. I've opened up the machine and I can't see any clear reason why, my only suspicion is that the fan blades are touching the screws, but the fan blades don't visually appear the touch the screws, though they come extremely close, but when the santha is running full bore, it is very hard to tell. I've been unable to localize the clicking noise, even using a listening "tube" of sorts, due to all the air whooshing around the motor.
When the santha is turned by hand in the normal direction the click happens as the RPMs start to climb. When it's turned against the normal direction, the click is present but more quiet. Due to the shape of the fan blades this does suggest it could be them. What's even more interesting is the device appears to be designed to have 11 fan blades, but only 10 are present - there is a very visible gap and what appears to be a blade that's been ripped off. Yet there's no broken fan blade to be found anywhere... or any free plastic, except a few shavings here and there.
I've tried gently bending the fan blades "up" but it has not helped the problem, or really lifted them much, if any. I don't want to get too aggressive, for fear of damage that voids the warranty. (Yes, I know they claim that opening the case voids the warranty, but that is generally not a legally supportable claim - consumer protection laws. Furthermore, if it is not possible to tell the case has been opened, the whole issue will be a moot point.)
Thoughts anybody? This clicking is a little maddening... but I'm not too crazy about the idea of sending the santha in for warranty repairs - the shipping will likely cost me quite a bit, especially if I have to cover it two ways! However, I am also not too crazy about the idea of ripping apart the motor myself to see if the problem resides within the motor, and possibly not being able to properly reassemble the motor. (It appears to be quite sealed!)
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 8, 2006 12:48:55 GMT -5
I would guess that it is the fan blades also. I shattered my fan blades (don't ask ). The replacement clicks a little also as I think I got it too far down on the shaft. Where I don't like to hear that yours only has 10/11 blades, it actually gives you a good place to pry up a little on the fan without too much fear of breaking another blade. If you feel comfortable doing that, give it a try being aware that if you break the blades you cannot run the santha at all - it overheats in minutes with no air flow (I tried it). But there is nothing else holding the fan on - it just pushes on and off. Just tap a flat bladed screwdriver under the fan and give a very gentle twist to pry it up. If you want, I will get a replacement blade out to you and then if you do break the current blade you can just take it all the way off and put the new one on (a little shallower). Your call - let me know.
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 9, 2006 3:30:36 GMT -5
Hmm... yes... I decided to run the santha some more (as I had some stuff I had to grind) and see if the sound would change. It does not appear to be getting better or worse.
If indeed the fan is causing problems for people, I suspect that there's a subtle design flaw in the santha, whereby: -The fan blades are designed to direct air upward, and hence as they spin there is a downward force being exerted on the blades -The fan blades are positioned with very close margin to the screws (which stick out a fair amount) -The fan blades made out of thermoplastic (hence, they can melt) -The fan blades warm up slightly when the santha is used for a long period of time
The result: the slightly heat-softened fan blades bend down more easily than they do when cool, and when a slightly softened blade is pushed down on for many hours... it begins to permanently warp... or slightly weaken.
This bug is probably present because: -It's not easily noticed - it doesn't likely happen unless the blades both get warm and are pushed downward for a long period of time. -It isn't a fatal bug (and fatal bugs are usually resolved quickly) - as the fans are softened thermoplastic, they touch, but if they bend down very far, they are touching a lot and will be pushed back up, whereby an equilibrium will quickly be reached that is just mostly annoying. -Even when it happens, the blades do not visibly touch when the machine is slowly, manually rotated - only when the blades are pushed down by full speed rotation is it a problem. -Depending on the exact plastic, the situation may not even be measurable unless the blades are spinning - the warmth and tension may actually just slightly weaken the plastic, so it deforms more easily under pressure.
However, all that said... my issue is not the fan. I have the fan completely removed from motor, and it STILL makes the incessant clicking noise when spun by hand or powered up. (Albeit for only a moment, due to the lack of cooling.) I have been able to inspect the top of the Santha's motor and nothing appears amiss. Thanks to no more blowing air, I've been able to better localize the source of the sound - it appears to be coming from the bottom 1/3 of the motor, but I can't see anything amiss. (I could be wrong on the location - sound can play tricks - but I'm about 80% confident.)
Interestingly, there appears to be a small amount of black plastic being blown around both inside the machine and out of it as well - not a lot, but a little bit of "plastic dust" - which implies that something plastic is certainly wearing. But, what? Where? What happens when it wears down completely... does it stop, or does something break?
I called Santha USA around noon EST yesterday and got their voicemail, I left a message but have not heard back. I'm going to try more assertively to reach them tomorrow. I'm dreading the idea of trying to track down suitable boxes and paying to ship something this heavy into them... and then perhaps waiting weeks? Months?
I'm going to see if I can get ahold of Santha USA before I rip this baby to pieces, but I wouldn't hesitate to rip this thing down to the very core if it wasn't for the fact that I don't know if I can re-assemble it in a way that would be undetectable for warranty issues. (And while I am probably legally allowed to disassemble it, I could get blamed for any damage present in there, and that's a messy thing to deal with...)
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 9, 2006 14:38:32 GMT -5
OK, I got ahold of Santha and the guy was very helpful. He was a little hard to understand, but very helpful and he's happy to ship me a replacement base unit (sans grinding cylinder, grinders, and lid), and then allow me to return my current base unit using the same box.
He was actually pleased to hear I had opened the unit and checked over everything... the missing fan blade was particularly worrisome to him, he wondered (as do I) if perhaps a piece of the fan blade ended up in the motor somehow. Now this... this makes sense... I'm a competent user, and giving me efficient, helpful service that doesn't berate me for exploring the problem is good for everyone.
If only I could convince Cingular of this...
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Post by Alan on Mar 9, 2006 15:00:14 GMT -5
OK, I got ahold of Santha and the guy was very helpful. He was a little hard to understand, but very helpful and he's happy to ship me a replacement base unit (sans grinding cylinder, grinders, and lid), and then allow me to return my current base unit using the same box. He was actually pleased to hear I had opened the unit and checked over everything... the missing fan blade was particularly worrisome to him, he wondered (as do I) if perhaps a piece of the fan blade ended up in the motor somehow. Now this... this makes sense... I'm a competent user, and giving me efficient, helpful service that doesn't berate me for exploring the problem is good for everyone. If only I could convince Cingular of this... It's good to know that they are friendly and helpful. That makes me even happier to use their product. Alan
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 9, 2006 15:20:43 GMT -5
Yeah... solid products + service = happy customers. I can only imagine if the large corporations in the US understood this concept...
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Post by Alan on Mar 9, 2006 15:25:09 GMT -5
Yeah... solid products + service = happy customers. I can only imagine if the large corporations in the US understood this concept... Just count yourself lucky that you are not dealing with the French. There are so many things about French culture that I really love, but their customer service (or lack thereof) is not one of them. No wonder so many Americans find them rude; but actually, the French are just as rude to each other as they are to Americans or anyone else, so it isn't prejudice. Anyway, sorry for being off topic, but the issue of customer service brought me back to thinking about my time there. Alan
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Post by Brad on Mar 10, 2006 11:32:13 GMT -5
SugarAlchemy;
Having completely cratered my Santha (cooked the motor and separated the center spindle from the granite base), spent 3 days researching better motors and now replaced the motor (Tim the Toolman Style), I can tell you that before mine bit the bullet it too developed that same clicking sound, which I too thought was the fan. Alas, it was the motor - one of the bearings to be exact. If you haven't put it back together yet, try and wiggle your main drive shaft back and forth. If there is ANY movement, there's your culprit, and soon your motor will burn out as well. If it moves, I would STRONGLY recommend that you not use it until your replacement arrives.
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 10, 2006 19:14:54 GMT -5
I have to say I am pleased to see the discussion about the Santha going on. It is the only way to get improvements made.
Sugaralchemy, did you get your Santha from me or direct from Santha - I don't care which, I am just curious.
I worked with the Santha for months before actually offering them. It looks like they may need a little more quality control, and that will only come with data.
I have heard about clicking noises before and had assumed it was the fan, but it is nice to know that at least in certain cases, it may be something else.
I will touch base with Santha about this.
Brad, did you get yours repared and upgraded?
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Post by Brad on Mar 10, 2006 20:47:34 GMT -5
Santha + Chocolate = MUCHO changes
My Santha is now back and operational. I have taken it completely apart and shown it to both engineers and electronics experts for tworeasons: 1) I had no choice, and 2) I wanted to fully understand it's engineering - not so much the "how's" but the "why's". Here is what I've found:
1. Don't put the silver tub in the diswasher. The bearings in the center mechanism are not sealed and will rust and sieze. This is what caused my bin to seperate from the center spindle mechanism. 2. Buy the Santha, and if you are going to use it to make chocolate, take it apart and use the stock motor as a boat anchor or whatever. It's a certified P.O.S. The fan is an afterthought and does absolutely NOTHING to draw air through the motor. On top of that, 1/4 hp is not enough. It needs 1/2hp. Period. 3. The wiring inside is dangerous. I've designed several pieces of equipment for my furniture plant, and knew this as soon as I opened the case. Yikes! Wires are not soldered, or properly clipped, but rather twisted and taped together. 4. The belt needs to be snug, and will rub and make noise if not tight. This is a simple adjustment, but loosening the two mounting bolts under the motor. The mounting brackets allow the motor to slide back and forth.
Here's what I did:
I purchased a 1/2 hp fan motor ($80) and capacitor ($30) from Acklands Grainger. It runs at 1075 rpm and has three speed settings if you want to run it slower. This RPM is the speed you will need due to the wheel ratio on the grinder. With some simple nuts and bolts, it very nicely fits on to the mounting brackets that exist. All I had to do was cut the shaft down.
I also purchased a 115v electric fan (like a computer fan), ($30) cut a hole in the top of the motor cover, and mounted it there, forcing air down through the motor.
With the exception of the small black box now mounted on top (doesn't really look bad), everything is back together and looks like a stock santha. I've run it and unlike the previous version, I cannot stop it with my hand. On top of that, I can feel cool air now blowing out of the vent holes at the bottom of the motor case (this is a very good thing).
If I had the patience I could have very easily added a switch to control the speed. The motor I chose offered 3 different speeds with the one I just mentioned being the fastest (currently the only one offered by Santha).
Now, on to "pulsing" as was mentioned in the tempering section. This is a big "No No" for both the stock motors and the "Tim The Toolman" upgrade. The reason is that the motors get a boost of juice (440v) when turned on to give them the extra oomph they need to get turning. If they didn't have it, they would never start turning, and would fry. Turning the motor on and off frequently will very quickly burn it out - yours OR mine. Capacitor driven motors (such as these) are designed to be started and then run for periods of time.
I've just glued the center spindle back to the granite after soaking it in WD40 to unsieze the bearings, and will give a further update as to it's hardiness tomorrow.
Having designed several pieces of equipment for my shop and consulted with experts on this, I believe this machine will now handle most anything I throw at it.
In conclusion, I strongly recommend that if it's to be used for chocolate making, you lose the motor as soon as you take it out of the box.
....and that's my final answer!
Brad.
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Post by Brad on Mar 10, 2006 20:49:29 GMT -5
Well... not quite my final answer.
Even with the new fan, and twice as powerful motor, my improved santha is WHISPER quiet!!
Whoo Hoo!
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Post by Brad on Mar 11, 2006 11:40:20 GMT -5
Assuming you've read my last couple of posts, I'm here to let you know that my new and improved Santha has now been running for 6 straight hours flawlessly. In fact, with the cooling fan on top, the motor temperature has remained well below the operating spec of 40 deg C..
Now, not being one to baby the equipment, I figured I'd jump right in. "Hey.. It's got twice the HP, let's eliminate the Champion step, just dump in the beans and see what happens." So I did. The result was a stalled drum until I added melted cocoa butter. Then all was good. It's important to note that while the drum stalled, the motor did not. I'm guessing that if I had a better belt (I'm using the original one), it would have kept ticking right along.
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Post by Alan on Mar 11, 2006 13:07:18 GMT -5
Dear Brad,
I am wondering if you could do me a bit of a favor.
1) I would be interested to look under the Santhacasing to see how the motor/fan is set up, but don't know how to remove the case. Would you be able to tell me how to do so?
2) I assume that the products that you bought at Acklands Grainger all have product numbers. Would you be able to list these so that I can find them online?
Thank you in advance for any and all help.
Alan
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 11, 2006 15:51:30 GMT -5
For whatever it's worth, my main drive shaft seems to be quite sturdy and stable. I've been running the santha some and it continues to make the clicking noise, without any changes in performance, sound, or shaft stability. I have a replacement on the way and I don't see a major reason not to use it - at the worst, it self destructs and the replacement arrives shortly.
Opening the santha is a cinch. Just flip it over and there's nice, large screws on the bottom which you should unscrew. Then put the santha right side up and lift the cover off. Just be aware, the power button is wired into the cover and not easily disconnected.
Really, the santha is super easy to open, as compared to most devices. And it's super simple design inside. I guess things like this do look simple compared to the innards of super-compact laptops, iPods, PDAs, phones...
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 11, 2006 17:19:57 GMT -5
Brad, that is great to hear you have it back up and running. Were you able to fit the new motor into the old housing?
As for the fan, I have to respectfully disagree where you say "that it does NOTHING." In my experience that is just not true, and the data does not support that. Consider the following. If you run the stock santha, the motor area reaches a temperature of around 60 C in an hour. If you increase the holes and allow a less restricted path for the air to move, the temperature is around 40 C. If on the other hand you break the fan blade, the temperature rockets to 80 C in about 10 minutes. Clearly the fan it doing something.
Now that is not to say it does not need improvement. It would be better in my mind if it were within the case and blowing air straight from the wrappings.
As for the size of the motor, I am undecided. 1/4 hp seems to do the job, but I will agree more power is better in that it would generate less heat under load.
Regardless, that is great what you have done.
Oh, I might be hesitant to replace to belt with one that does not slip. This is sort of from my discussions of "what if" situations in an engineering group (I have worn many hats in my time). Say something "breaks" inside the drum area and it becomes jambed - what would you prefer to happen? The motor to stop and burn up the motor? The motor not stop, the belt not stop, but the base on the unit cracks? The motor does not stop, the base stays intact, the belt slips? Seems to me the belt slipping is the cheaps thing to fail. Just food for thought. Lots of things (industrial drives come to mind) us belts for just this reason. It is much nicer to replace a cheap belt than another expensive component.
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