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Post by Ben on Jul 12, 2011 10:41:32 GMT -5
In case anyone missed it, John has posted the design for the winnower he's been working on: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/07/11/chocolate-alchemys-diy-winnowerSince the forums are better for discussion, I figured I'd post my comments and questions here rather than as a comment to the blog post. My first impression is that it's a good evolution and fine tuning of the existing PVC designs out there and that some of us are using. I love the compact design. My current winnower is a little unwieldy. I think it answers the question of whether a long separation tube is necessary. My current winnower has a long tube after the cracked beans enter, but it looks like this is unnecessary. It looks like the winnowing is pretty much immediate once the beans enter the winnower. Either the husk gets sucked away, or it doesn't. A couple questions: The champion is used to crack the beans. Will this not work (or not work well) with the crankandstein? Or is the champion used so that it can be automatic? With the left-hand valve, what is the significance of cutting the hole and the placement? It looks like the cutout piece that is bolted in place causes the beans to jump up into the winnower as opposed to just dropping down. Is that right? Do you get much dust continuing past the bucket into the vacuum, or does most of it stay in the bucket? I seem to be constantly cleaning/changing filters so less dust in the vac would be great. Are the 45 degree angles in the bucket pointed at each other or turned to create a vortex? I think that's all I have right now. I look forward to building one myself! Thanks for the design, John. -Ben Update 8/20/13: John has posted several blog entries about his winnower design and the pre-built versions he sells. There is a ton of great info in these entries and their comments. I think that they, combined with this thread, answer most questions anyone may have. For future reference, here are the links to all of the entries: Initial announcement & design: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/07/11/chocolate-alchemys-diy-winnower/Discusses deflector disk, use of the champion for cracking, and discriminator valve: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/07/13/chocolate-alchemys-diy-winnower-part-2/Picture of a prototype with some detail discussion: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/07/17/chocolate-alchemys-diy-winnower-part-3/Announcement of pre-built Aether Winnower: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/09/02/announcing-the-aether-winnow/Announcement of pre-built Aether Sprite Winnower; includes discussion of differences between this and the full-size Aether Winnower and tuning instructions in the comments: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2011/09/12/the-aether-sylph-winnower/ |
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Post by eanbean on Jul 13, 2011 18:42:48 GMT -5
I saw the iteration just before this one and it was very impressive, even with raw beans.
The Champion cracks the beans at a good rate for feeding directly into the winnower. The nib sizes were fairly consistent. No dust in the air and most of the husk and dust in the bin without making it to the shop vac.
With the raw beans there was a bit of husk on a few beans but it was very easy to remove (either by running it through one more time, removing it through screening, visually picking it off since they were bigger pieces of husk or you could give it a quick going over with a hair dryer). Roasted beans should not have this problem.
It was just the sound of the shop vac and Champion running at the same time and is not too loud. Seems a lot quieter than some other expensive options out there.
I really like how compact and simple this design is. It will readily fit into a small space and if put on a cart with wheels, it could easily be moved around too. This gives a lot of flexibility for the smaller maker of chocolate and it should be easy to scale up or down to meet demand.
Getting a good sized hopper (around 40 lbs. capacity) on the Champion would be something I would like to see. This would drastically reduce the amount of time required to feed in beans. (Screw feed would be ideal since then you remove the need to lift the beans into the hopper and/or constrictions with sizing the hopper)
I would also like to see the hopper and winnower made in stainless steel. I imagine if there were several commitments to purchase (either the components you assemble yourself or buying an assembled version) the cost of doing it in stainless steel would go down (higher quantity purchase brings the cost per component down).
Are there many of you out there that would want to commit for a stainless steel version? I feel stainless steel would be a lot better for food inspectors, etc. (and you know it would look cooler with stainless steel too)
Well done John. You've delivered to the (chocolate) people yet again. Thank you.
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Post by reelchemist on Jul 13, 2011 21:14:40 GMT -5
I have not used a champion juicer before and was wondering other than the mentioned modification for feeding into the winnower, do I need to purchase anything else. Can I just go buy a champion juicer and have all the bits I need?
How well does the champion feed beans through it from the hopper? Do you have to give it a shake now and then or is the vibration of the machine enough?
Also using the champion as a cracker for extended periods, is this motor up for the job?
For an auger feed system to feed the juicer could use a grape destemmer, it is a large hopper that feeds through metal cogs at one end and can get motorised ones. I thought about using this for cracking but it doesn't work (because the would be cracking cogs are spring loaded so don't crack the beans) but would feed well. It is just they are quite large but since the winnower design is so compact this may be an option??
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Post by eanbean on Jul 13, 2011 22:23:14 GMT -5
In my experience, the Champions seem to be a great work horse. Really haven't had a problem with one yet that I can remember. In an hour's time you could have about 60 lbs of beans, so I'm not thinking you would be running it all day if you're a smaller shop.
You'll have the bits you need with the Champion plus you'll need the tubes, etc. in John's design.
John had a small hopper on top that seemed to work fine without prodding. Seems like the vibration seems to be enough. May need to test it out with a larger hopper.
Excellent idea about the grape destemmer. That would be interesting to try. You are correct, they are large.
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Post by reelchemist on Jul 13, 2011 22:51:13 GMT -5
Yeah, you are quite right, probably wouldn't be running the champion for more than half an hour at a time doing 15kg roasts.
With a bigger hopper it would seem like the cheapest option for automated cracking/feeding to a winnower I have seen.
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Post by eanbean on Jul 13, 2011 23:22:59 GMT -5
Oh yeah. Definitely the most reasonably priced option out there (even in stainless steel).
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Post by oaxacalote on Jul 14, 2011 2:02:55 GMT -5
Ben, the DIY winnower we inherited (and further adapted) came equipped with a quite valuable piece of proprietary tech: one leg of a panty hose stretched around a small plastic cage fitted onto the vacuum intake on the chaff bucket. It works brilliantly as a pre-filter for the vacuum!
A question for the thread:
Champion cracker vs. motorized Crankandstein? I'm particularly curious about how well the Champion deals with different sized beans, which is a weakness of the Crankandstein. I don't own a Champion to compare with our Crankandstein (not motorized yet, but plenty of good designs out there to do it thanks to the homebrew community).
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Post by Alchemist on Jul 16, 2011 8:02:00 GMT -5
OK, this is terrible. I've had my head so far into this project I never thought of heading over to the forum here to check out and see if there was a thread.
Some random notes, comments, thoughts, answers, etc.
I have a 35 lb and 55 lb hopper drawn and mocked up. Just about to head out to the shop to build the 55 lb one, with support. In plexiglass. Drawings are going to the sheet metal shop Monday for stainless steel pricing. For the 'small' user, I'm going to look at offering up the same hopper that comes with the Crankandstein. 10 lbs or so.
The winnower is now on version three since eanbean saw it - mostly clean up, and support system. It's working and going together SO nicely. One VERY important part has been making sure there are no lateral stresses on the Champion and the motor isn't built for any and you can burn it out if it's mis-aligned (as you would any motor).
Vibration is indeed enough to feed the beans into the Champion. Current speed is 1 lb of raw nibs produced in 1 min, 6 seconds. Roasted is faster and have 100 lbs of roasted beans to winnow today. I'll be taking a lot of measurements I hope.
The Champion produces a little more dust than the Crankandstein, but produces a much more even set of particles. And the Crankandstein does not deal well with raw beans and can have a few feeding issues if you are using particularly small or large beans - they can spin on the top rollers.
And as a design note - why didn't I motorize a Crankandstein? I will. Just to test. Along with my very expensive four roller cracker. But by doing so, you complicate the design. Doable, but more complicated - and more expensive. Drill mounting or motors with reduction gears. It just gets fussy. My BIG push for this winnower is elegant, approachable and affordable.
I'll check back here and answer more questions if people want.
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Post by Ben on Aug 12, 2011 20:10:20 GMT -5
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Post by oaxacalote on Aug 14, 2011 1:19:16 GMT -5
We took our first swing at building John's new winnower last week. Worked fairly well.
We experienced some issues with nibs collecting on the ball valve by the nib entry chute. Didn't create problems for us, but the nibs did collect there. Ben, using a double wye sounds like a great idea to avoid this.
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pcm
Novice
Posts: 75
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Post by pcm on Aug 14, 2011 11:08:29 GMT -5
I had the advantage of going down to Eugene and looking at John's winnower in person and ran home to build one myself. My yield is significantly better and I am really happy with it. I wish I could work with stainless... I basically just made a functioning machine that I am not officially allowed to use. It does work, though.
Thank you John!
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Post by Alchemist on Aug 14, 2011 19:15:21 GMT -5
Sadly, no, that one will not work. I tested it specifically with great hopes that it would. The issue is that too much of the discriminator air flow is 'lost' above the nib entry so has little to know effect. Also, in regards to nibs collecting in the valve, I've moved the valve opening directly under the entry hole, to both make use of it's full air flow and to help keep the nibs from bouncing into the opening. As for stainless, I have started some price quotes. As expected, they are not cheap due to the custom work. Each working piece is coming back at around $700-800. |
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Post by Ben on Aug 16, 2011 9:36:06 GMT -5
I should have assumed you had tried it!  What about blocking the top half of the hole to force the airflow through the bottom? So, you've moved the discrim hole below the nib entry hole? That doesn't diminish it's efficacy? If not, I wonder how far down the tube you could push the discrim hole to still get the desired effect. For example, what about a 2nd wye--maybe upside down--attached directly below the nib feeder wye? Would that still churn the air enough to fluff the nibs? |
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Post by Alchemist on Aug 30, 2011 21:02:08 GMT -5
What about blocking the top half of the hole to force the airflow through the bottom? I guess the question is why, or maybe even better would be how. I can't think of a simple, elegant, durable way to do that, nor am I sure it would have any good effect. If you block part, you change all the air flow ratios and that screws up the efficiency. You then would have to insert a larger tube, but the part will only take so large a piece....deadend No, if anything it improves most everything. I have a 2nd wye in the shop that I am going to try out (tomorrow I hope) and I will let you know. The main issue is that you don't want the nibs and more importantly the husk to gain too much momentum or suddenly you need both more drop tube to turn them around and then more air flow/vacuum to get the job done. But I will try it as it would be a simpler build. Oh, but you absolutely don't want the wye upside down, i.e. pointing down or you get nib out of it. It still needs to point up. |
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Post by Ben on Jul 9, 2012 8:12:02 GMT -5
Finally got around to building one of these a month or two ago. Mounted it to a cart this past weekend. Still need to build a hopper... Everything is the same, except I'm using pvc valves for the vacuum control and discriminator, and a cyclone dust collector to collect the husks. Pic attached. Works great! Attachments:
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What about blocking the top half of the hole to force the airflow through the bottom?