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Post by Brad on Sept 10, 2015 14:39:13 GMT -5
Mmmm....
Smoked brisket and sausage (You know Sebastian... the stuff you're teasing us all with?) on raw free range toast, served on top of Mt. Johnson....
Send the invite Sebastian!
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Post by Sebastian on Sept 10, 2015 14:56:29 GMT -5
You know the rules - you climb the mountain, we feed you!
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Post by Robert on Sept 10, 2015 18:35:49 GMT -5
Lubo, just out of curiosity how do you turn your Organic raw cacao beans into liquor? Generaly, when melanging my temperatures run around 130 to 140F. By the way I enjoy raw vegetables. I had a bite of "raw" chocolate once and stayed up all night fearing for my life:)
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Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
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Post by Ch on Sept 12, 2015 6:02:12 GMT -5
Hello Robert, Now I use a small melanger and with a Laser thermometer I check the temperature of the liquor regularly to not exceed 45°C ... the process is a bit slow now ... I'm waiting to receive this days my new Santa 11 with speed controller!!! The Santa 11 speed controller is very useful to keep the temperature low, but I will check the temperature regularly, just hope that I will have to do the checks not so many times during the batch
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Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
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Post by Ch on Sept 15, 2015 8:30:35 GMT -5
... Ozone is actually a fantastically effective antioxidant killer. ... Sebastian, thank you very much for the Ozone mark in your post, you are absolutely right, and it will help me not to oxidise the antioxidants in my RAW Chocolate. In my UV-C Cacao Beans cleaning machine I'm going to place only 1 or 2 UV-C + Ozone Lamps and all other Lamps are going to be only UV-C Ozone free (no UV-C rays of 185 nm spectral line). I'm going to use the Ozone Lamp only on the first disinfection stage when I'm disinfecting the whole Cacao beans. On the second stage of disinfection of the Cacao nibs I'm going to use only the Ozone free lamps. Also about the RAW Chocolate disinfection I have to place something very important, which I missed in this tread: HONEY
I'm using only honey as a sweetener, and because of the fact that the honey in my RAW Chocolate haven't been tempered above 45ºC it's vital power is very strong. Below I'm posting few links which I googled about the Honey and the E. coli / Salmonella: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609166/"... 3.1. Potential antibacterial agentThe use of honey as a traditional remedy for microbial infections dates back to ancient times[8]. Research has been conducted on manuka (L. scoparium) honey[27], which has been demonstrated to be effective against several human pathogens, including Escherichia coli (E. coli), Enterobacter aerogenes, Salmonella typhimurium, S. aureus[6],[27]. Laboratory studies have revealed that the honey is effective against methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA), β-haemolytic streptococci and vancomycin-resistant Enterococci (VRE) ..." www.webmd.com/diet/medicinal-uses-of-honey"... Antibacterial Honey?In the laboratory, honey has been shown to hamper the growth of food-borne pathogens such as E. coli and salmonella, and to fight certain bacteria, including Staphylococcus aureus and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, both of which are common in hospitals and doctors' offices. But whether it does the same in people hasn't been proven. ..." P.S. Sebastian, I'm not a golden child, I'm just another Alchemist.
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Post by Sebastian on Sept 15, 2015 17:36:15 GMT -5
At the risk of being repetitive, your approach will not work. Honey will not provide a meaningful log reduction, and the studies you cited are not relevant for the topic at hand as they were not performed on the substrate in question, with the specific organisms in question, and do not provide log kill parameters a to name a few challenges.
You appear to be taking the path of "scientific optimism" - ie trying to apply studies done in one area unilaterally to another area and hope the results will transfer. They will not. This approach is a not a substitute for validating the approach the right way, and will result in hurting people.
I am unlikely to continue to participate in this thread unless actual data and methods are presented. Your approach will fail to provide even minimal food safety.
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Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
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Post by Ch on Sept 16, 2015 5:39:27 GMT -5
I'll provide soon microbiological analysis of my RAW chocolate with and without Cacao beans UV-C & Ozone disinfection. I'm absolutely sure that both kinds will be far below the minimum permitted levels. It will be interesting in the meantime if someone can provide detailed information about the pathogens level of E.Cole ans Salmonella in RAW Cacao beans from a random purchase and the levels after the Cacao beans roasting process.
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Post by Honey? on Sept 16, 2015 11:52:36 GMT -5
Lubo, You say you use honey in your raw chocolate. Is it in dehydrated form? If not how do you prevent the chocolate from turning into a gooey mess? Do you add other ingredients to make it harden and shine, and do you temper it at all?
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Post by timwilde on Sept 21, 2015 14:19:37 GMT -5
Honey is a thing I know about. And yes, the studies have shown that bacteria dont survive to reproduce or colonize in honey. However, after extensive testing and studies, it's because of it's low moisture content and high sugar content. If you dilute the honey, you dilute it's "antibiotic" properties. So, a thick and viscous jar of honey will remain edible and pathogen free indefinitely (there are 2,000 year old jars of honey from Egypt that are completely edible). However, dilute the honey in a 1-5 ratio (1 gallon of honey to 5 gallons of water, a perfect mead ratio btw ) And within 4 days, mold and other spores will begin to grow, and you've just made yourself an almost perfect microbial environment. Point here is, dont rely on honey for antimicrobial properties. They simply don't exist outside of it's natural form.
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Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
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Post by Ch on Sept 23, 2015 1:53:14 GMT -5
timwilde, thank you for the post above. The antibacterial and bacteriostatic power of honey in low concentrations such as 12-17-20% is powerful enough. Please check the research about the honey concentration here: researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10289/2094/antibacterial...?sequence=1(add .pdf extension to the downloaded file, if it's not opened automatically) P.S. The most important fact about the honey antibacterial power is that we are talking about RAW and 100% natural honey get directly from bees wit no tempering above 45 degrees Celsius. 100% of the honey in the supermarket have been tempered on much higher temperatures, such a honey is totally dead junk food and have no healthy power and no antibacterial power. Yes, there's are some REAR heat-stable honey kinds but they are so rear ... by default the high temperatures are destroying the bactericid power of the natural honey.
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Post by timwilde on Sept 23, 2015 11:09:12 GMT -5
Well, I use nothing but raw honey for my meads, as it gives the best flavor and aromatics. A lot of research has been put in in the last 5-10 years specifically dealing with this because of the purported antimicrobial properties, they wanted to research the hows and whys. It genuinely is the low moisture and hygroscopic qualities of the sugars. It overwhelms micro organisms to the point that they are dehydrated and loose the ability for locomotion and reproduction. I also can tell you anecdotally, at as high as a 20% solution of raw honey, yeast and bacteria can and most certainly will grow in honeyed water. Risks of "infection" are actually quite high, and I've let one batch go just to see and found a mat of black fuzzies (mold). I'd most definitely not rely on it from any commercial standpoint. The latest common trend is sour and wild meads, which utilize wild yeasts and bacteria from the pediococcus and lactobaccilus families.
Knowing all that, and knowing how chocolate works, you'd have to dehydrate the honey in order to use it in anything but a ganache or filling, at which point it has the same antimicrobial properties as white sugar.
I forgot to note above why I mentioned the last 5-10 years - The paper you linked is amazingly devoid of dates. Science becomes outdated with new information. Not that the results have changed, but our understanding of why the results were achieved can change and will dramatically change how we apply things in the real world.
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