|
Post by cuteysar on May 29, 2015 7:38:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Brad on Jun 6, 2015 0:29:06 GMT -5
I would love to hear about your "raw" process, and how you make sure the beans are safe to eat without using heat to kill pathogens.
Cheers Brad
|
|
Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
|
Post by Ch on Sept 6, 2015 7:50:35 GMT -5
Some raw chocolate producers use citrus based disinfectant in order to clean the Cacao beans from pathogens, but we haven't tested it. There are more alternative and healthy ways to clean and disinfect the raw Cacao beans, one of them is the silver water (colloidal silver) for example ... combined with UV-C light, Ozone O3, vacuum, baking soda probably will clean the RAW Cacao beans enough. I like very much the Chocolate Alchemy forum, I have found here a lot of valuable information about the chocolate making equipment and etc. Thank you! The only disadvantage personally for me is that it seems that the majority of the people here are from the Fortress of the thermally (over 45ºC) processed chocolate made from roasted Cacao beans and sugar and they don't like the people from the RAW chocolate heresy, but that's OK when you're aware of this.
|
|
|
Post by Thomas on Sept 6, 2015 14:27:13 GMT -5
There are many people on this site that have scientific, engineering, and food production backgrounds. I don't believe they have a dislike for people who produce RAW chocolate. They seek to understand the process of how RAW chocolate pathogens are destroyed without heat. When I read that pathogens can be killed by using citrus or colloidal silver, it raises other questions for me. Not about the pathogens, but questions like: Does the citrus flavor the chocolate? or How does one deal with introducing water (i.e. colloidal silver) to the beans? I think the pathogen question keeps getting asked is because there's either not much of a response or no data to back up the method. I have nothing against RAW chocolate or the people who make it. I just find it very interesting to read the post and responses on this forum related to its production.
|
|
Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
|
Post by Ch on Sept 7, 2015 2:26:42 GMT -5
Thank you Thomas, I'm interested also very much of this topic!
|
|
|
Post by Ovena on Sept 7, 2015 21:22:20 GMT -5
I like to produce raw chocolate too but I do not take into consideration the pathogen part. Is it a real problem with chocolate making?
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Sept 8, 2015 16:54:30 GMT -5
[quote author=" Ch" combined with UV-C light, Ozone O3, vacuum, baking soda probably will clean the RAW Cacao beans enough. [/quote] It's certainly not that the 'fortress' that you speak of has any dislike for the raw community, however it's the often cavalier attitude of 'probably' that concerns us. One one hand we have a very, very, very thoroughly established and peer reviewed understanding of the pathogenic risk and effective mitigations that stop you from dying that spans many decades of rigorous research. On the other hand we have a "well this will "probably" work" attitude that has yet to be backed up with any evidence. This fortress is merely concerned that you don't inadvertently kill your customers because you (collective you, not you specifically) thought it was 'probably' safe because you had a friend of a friend who read it on the internet somewhere, and desperately want the world to conform to your fervent belief that the rules that govern the universe should make an exception to your belief system. I think you'd find the fortress very open to new research, should it be well done research, that results in challenging this current prevailing understanding. Until that time, "probably" safe will probably be met with less than open arms as the danger of killing people is very real, and we're funny that way about not wanting to kill people. To ignore it is dangerous and irresponsible.
|
|
Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
|
Post by Ch on Sept 9, 2015 3:47:40 GMT -5
About the disinfection of the RAW Cacao beans I think that the most effective method except roasting is the UV-C combined with Ozone (O3) treatment. This method will work better if we disinfect first the RAW Cacao beans and after the cracking and winnowing process we repeat the process with the Cacao nibs. Very important part in this process is the Ozone, because it can access places like small cracks and holes where the UV-C light cant. On the market there are combined solutions for UV-C + Ozone disinfection. Many hospitals use such a equipment for rooms and equpment disinfection. Ozone is formed by exposure of the Oxygen molecules with UV-C rays of 185 nm spectral line. The most sterilizing effect have the UV-C 253.7 nm spectral line. If you get equipment which works on the 180 - 280 nm Ultraviolet Light range you have got both disinfectants: the UV-C and Ozone (O3). I think that if you place the beans / nibs on a glass surface (not a UV protective glass ...), have 3 or 5 UV-C lamps, and place one of them bellow the nibs you will receive much better effect. Important: The UV-C Light and Ozone (O3) are dangerous for the human body and because of that, the disinfection have to be done on a different room with no any humans or animals inside. After the disinfection procedure the room must be well ventilated! High concentration of Ozone in the air is poisonous and may cause male humans and animals sterilization ... UV-C Light and the spectrum of Light
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Sept 9, 2015 5:53:15 GMT -5
I know what UV light and ozone are I also know the answer to how effective the are because i've done the work. What the raw community needs to do is do the work and share the method they used and the results. Copying info from a wiki and saying another industry uses it does NOT mean it will be suitable for this industry. Hospitals are still the most likely place to become infected, and hospitals have nice surfaces like flat walls and floors for UV light to contact, and not little cracks and crevices and folds like cocoa beans and shells do (where light can't penetrate). You may *think* it will work - and that's a great starting point for *proving* if it will work or not. Go henceforth and prove your theory FWIW i think there IS a way to make unroasted beans microbiologically safe, but i've not tested it yet, and won't disclose it until such time as it has been tested to ensure no one tries it in case it DOESN'T work... Roasting is the ONLY, and i repeat - the ONLY currently proven way of ensuring micro food safety in chocolate. The raw community's dislike or acceptance of that statement has no bearing on it's truthfulness, i'm afraid.
|
|
Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
|
Post by Ch on Sept 9, 2015 9:44:20 GMT -5
The Information above is NOT from any wiki ... it's my private research on how to clean my RAW Cacao beans which I shared here with the community. I have read on many places the explanations concerning the cracks and small holes and UV-C light and can't understand way the role of the Ozone (O3) is just ignored ... also the 2 time disinfection process of the Cacao beans first and after that of the winnowed Cacao nibs is also ignored. I will publish here soon the microbiological Laboratory tests results of the pathogens analysis in the RAW Chocolate made from 3 different kinds of Cacao beans with and without UV-C + Ozone disinfection, but I'm pretty sure that the results of both kind of RAW Chocolate will be far below the minimum levels! P.S. Sebastian, I haven't published all the Information above for you, I'm happy that you know what the UV-C light is. I have shared the Information from my personal research, which may be useful for some people in Internet who are looking for a working way to be sure that their RAW Chocolate is clean enough without killing and destroying all the antioxidants and natural enzymes - the most Important nutritional value of the Cacao with roasting. The decision whether to share your ideas freely with others or to leave them for yourself is your private decision ...
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Sept 9, 2015 10:07:05 GMT -5
That's fantastic. I look forward to your methodology and results. I look forward to understanding the species of Salmonella used and if you're using a surrogate or not, the log reduction and replicates (you DID inoculate with multiple serotypes to begin with, right?), the size of the sample treated, the temperature and concentration curves, and how the pre and post sampling was conducted (i.e. did the O3 penetrate to center of mass or just on the external surfaces). Did you include any spore-formers that were in their non-vegetative state, and if so, what was their [T0} and post treatment [ ]? Should you have found a way to achieve sufficient log kill of pathogens that's suitable, it'd be interesting to see what this does to flavor, for as you know UVC has tremendous energy behind it, and O3 is a fantastic oxidizer.
Data data data - lets see the data. Very good that you're doing your own research. Looking forward to seeing the data. You can't be sure of anything without the data.
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Sept 9, 2015 10:34:45 GMT -5
Beo - i don't mean to sound harsh - it's nothing against you. I've been doing this for many decades, and i've had similar discussions with hundreds - if not thousands - of folks in the raw community who frankly are ignoring established science, make all sorts of wild and crazy claims that they position as fact, and i've yet to see a single piece of evidence to support any of their claims - which are often at odds with the established science. my tolerance with repeating myself at length is at an all time low as i simply don't want to have the same conversation over and over, and i've found the topic has many parallels to trying to convince someone of another religion or political persuasion that their way is wrong - it can't be done. I'd love for you to be the one who shows up to the discussion with solid scientific data that's peer reviewed and replicated. i understand that i'm likely coming across harsh - i'm certainly not looking for an internet fight - however this topic doesn't fall into the category of meaningless argument - the consequence of getting this wrong mean that peoples lives are put at risk.
|
|
|
Post by Brad on Sept 9, 2015 16:06:14 GMT -5
Beo and Sebastian,
Reading the debate between the two of you reminds me of the challenges that anonymity presents via the internet. Sebastian, I know who you are and have a pretty good understanding of your CV. Beo, I don't know who you are, but it sounds as though you are doing your homework. It is also clear you don't know who Sebastian is.
And... well... nobody cares who I am! I'm just a dude who dirt bikes and makes chocolate. LOL
It's very difficult to debate or progress constructively in a topic when both parties don't understand the history of the other. That is clearly showing through here.
Now, having said that I still fail to understand why on God's green earth, ANYONE would want to grind up unroasted cocoa beans and eat them!! They taste like crap regardless of how much sugar, agave syrup, or honey one adds to them!! The only thing that makes cocoa taste like chocolate is heat (at least from my experience.) and when the day is done it's still candy whether it's raw or not, and given the fact that raw or not, that "chocolate" will inevitably end up being at least 60% fat and sugar (aka CANDY), you might as well make it taste good if you're going to get fat eating it.
CHOCOLATE IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE A HEALTH FOOD. NO HEALTH FOOD IS MOSTLY FAT AND SUGAR!!! STOP LIVING THE DELUSION PEOPLE!!! GEEEZZZZ....
Blech....
Having said that, and understanding how big business works, doesn't it stand to reason that IF a company could viably make "raw" chocolate for the masses, and actually have people purchase it and like it they would?? After all, not roasting the beans could save magnitudes of $$ in the cost of production.
Maybe we should start drinking raw coffee too, and eating raw toast. Oh... wait.... It's called bread...
Sorry. I'm just being facetious now.
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Sept 10, 2015 7:31:45 GMT -5
Sometimes you just crack me up Brad i recall your analogy about we wouldn't drink water off the jungle floor, why would we eat something that's been soaking in it? For whatever reason there's a fervent belief that non-thermally processed cocoa is a health food, that it's a good source of 'enzymes' that do 'good things' (which enzymes, and what good things isn't entirely clear, nor is it clear that they're even surviving the bean drying process). That there's only one way to preserve the antioxidants (there's many ways). Ozone is actually a fantastically effective antioxidant killer. While i've not looked at this, i suspect that high powered radiation (which is what UV C is) would also be pretty effective at tearing up flavanols (antioxidants). It looks like Beo might be the golden child - that is, the one guy who shows up having done some research and presents some data to back all this up. If that's so, that's fantastic, and i applaud him for doing the work and not blindly accepting whatever the 'conventional wisdom' of the food babe or whatever her name is these days is misinforming folks with. The beautiful thing about science is we learn new things all the time, and Beo might be the guy who leads us into a new set of learnings. I think there is a way to provide a food safe, non thermally processed chocolate, but it'd be expensive also as it'd use processes that aren't currently employed in the chocolate industry, and would need to be retooled a bit. But i do think it's viable. It's not been proven to be thus though, but i'd wager at least a case of beer that it'd work. Why you'd want to subject yourself to something that tastes so bad for science that's not been proven, is another matter entirely. Taste is subjective, and the human psyche is a terribly complex thing, no? Brad - I've often joked about launching a free range bread (we let the wheat grow wherever it wants, we don't cage it in!). Positioning it at raw toast would be fantastically funny. Free range AND raw? Schweet!
|
|
Ch
Neophyte
Posts: 9
|
Post by Ch on Sept 10, 2015 9:35:42 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the feedback guys! My name is Lubo, and yes, I eat RAW ALIVE bread ... The raw bread have very nice and good taste actually! Here is my ALIVE BREAD recipe: 2 cups of sprouts of wheat and rye + 2 cups of walnuts (or some other nuts) + tea cup thyme, grind them well in the blender, squeeze the mixture well and place it in the dehydrator for few hours 12-14 h on 45 ºC, that's it! Brad, you are absolutely right about the Internet anonymity, below is a short info about me: About the raw chocolate which I make: It's a chocolate made from Organic raw Cacao beans which I'm not tempering on temperatures above 45 ºC and I use only different types of honey as a sweetener, the honey percentage in my different types of chocolate is not more than 35% and below. Аny additional ingredients in my Chocolate like Coconut, Ginger, Vanilla and etc. I purchase only Organic certified and raw. A example about the Coconut which I use in one of my favorite Chocolate: I purchase the Organic Coconuts, peel them, slice them, dehydrate them in dehydrator on temperatures not above 45 ºC and just before to put them in the Chocolate I grind them. I'm sure that such a Chocolate is a healthy one! (If, it's CLEAN from any pathogen contaminants afcourse.) About me: I'm 43 years old from Sofia, Bulgaria. I discovered the Magic of Cacao 2 years ago, I started with a home made chocolate last year as a hobby in my free time. At the beginning I bought 1 kg raw Cacao from a healthy store, after that started to purchase very small quantities 15-20 kg RAW Cacao beans from different sources. Today I still haven't finished the Cacao beans from my first "bigger" Cacao beans purchase ~200 kg / 3 jute bags of organic raw Cacao beans from Peru, Ecuador and Dominican Republic. My chocolate business is very small yet BUT my soul is feeling very happy when I'm in touch with the Magic of Cacao and because of that I learn hard with great pleasure!!! I understand very well that I'm a newcomer in the world of the Cacao Alchemy, but everyone was a beginner once My desire is to eat mostly raw food and because of that I would like to make RAW Chocolate which is healthy and is CLEAN from any pathogen contaminants!
|
|