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Post by helmsalee on Mar 22, 2014 9:49:49 GMT -5
Hello to all. Newby here, so I will do my best. Wanting to supplement my coffee drinking with drinking cocao. I am getting some mixed messages on posts. Cocao from my understanding can have a powerhouse of health benefits. Are the chemical constituents sufficiently/effeciently extracted when steeping coarse ground in a french press for five minutes? I believe a decoction is necessarry for extracting nutrients from harder substances such as roots. I do not know if ground cocao falls into this category of needing a decoction. There is much more to cocao than just the flavor and why not benefit from its health giving qualities. I did make some chocolatl with cayenne recently with 70% cocao content(Trader Joes brand) and was fantastic. My question for clarity is .... Am I receiving more health giving chemical constituents from roasted ground cocao than from a raw cocao bar melted in water or milk. Thank you and enjoy.
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Post by Sebastian on Mar 23, 2014 5:36:56 GMT -5
Hi Helmsalee - you're right, in that cocoa *can* be loaded with flavanols - which have a strong link to cardiovascular health (largely through vasoconstriction and platelet aggregation benefits). I say *can* because how that cacao is processed has a HUGE impact on the retention of the flavanols. First, the cacao beans must be mature and disease free (many farmers harvest prematurely). Second, if those beans are fermented, each minute fermentation progresses, it destroys the flavanols. Third, if the cacao is them roasted (which is must be to make it safe), for every degree higher temp it's roasted and for every minute longer it's roasted, it destroy's flavanols. Finally, if the cocoa is alkalized, that will effectively guarantee whatever remains has been destroyed.
Short answer to say 'yes' it can be beneficial, but to guarantee it as such you need to be in control of the production pipeline and understand what those thresholds are.
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Post by helmsalee on Mar 23, 2014 10:31:13 GMT -5
Fantastic clarity Sebastian and thank you. I am not aiming to become a chocolatier, more of an interest in initial processing of beans(minimalist here). Your information gives me the understanding, as stated by many, it starts with the bean. Is there a source of information regarding threshholds to preserve as many flavonols and other constituents while still maintaining a "safe bean"? Is there the ability to source beans that are mature and strive to meet the requirements needed to maintain nutrient levels? This may be a lot to ask of farmers that already have a lot of pressure to meet their own needs. I am guessing direct trade to customers for personal use is difficult due to lack of quantity being purchased. It seems there is usually at least one middle man in sales. My interest is to prduce "drinkable chocolate" with the intention of receiving health benefits foremost. The pleasure of the cocoa is an added benefit and blessing. Palates are being suppressed by so much junk in processing. I would love to hear back from you. Enjoy
Additional Inquiry: I am interested in going to cocao farms in Belize, Costa Rica or Ecuador. Does anyone have suggestions on tours that are hands on?
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Post by Sebastian on Mar 23, 2014 13:49:46 GMT -5
There are a few folks around the world who know the relationship between fermentation, drying, roasting, and flavanol levels - i'm afraid you're unlikely to find that information published anywhere. I think on these boards somewhere i'd posted guild lines for 4-5log micro kill on a dry roaster piece of equipment.
you're likely to find direct trade a very difficult proposition at single consumer level scale; i'd suggest you work with John to select one of his existing bean sources and find something that's suitable for your needs.
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Post by Brad on Mar 24, 2014 2:30:00 GMT -5
Helmsalee;
I've read Sebastian's replies to your post, and I think there is something that the both of your are missing as it applies to creating a "healthy" chocolate drink: Ingredients.
1. Your chocolate drink isn't going to taste like chocolate until the beans are roasted (some flavanols are destroyed). 2. You are going to have to add sugar to it to make it palatable. 3. You are going to have to use milk to make it palatable to the average person. 4. By the time you get a recipe that people will actually purchase, the health benefits are going to be far outweighed by the the fat and sugar that is already in the drink.
I mean... even take a look at the composition of a 70% bar. On average it's 65% fat and sugar. How on God's green earth anyone can call a 70% bar healthy when most of it is fat and sugar is absolutely beyond me. If you want anti-oxidants have a bowl of blueberries.
As far as I'm concerned (I'm no scientist, just a pragmatic guy), chocolate - whether in liquid or solid form is NOT a health food, and CERTAINLY not a medicine.
Brad.
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Post by helmsalee on Mar 24, 2014 8:32:58 GMT -5
I can certainly appreciate your perspective. Do you eat garlic? Garlic has antibiotic, antiviral and cholesterol regulating qualities. Many eat garlic as food and yet it has medicinal or nutritive qualities. Food is medicine/nutritional. I guess it is how you want to coin the prase or what approach is being taken in diet. Asking as someone without knowledge on the subject of cocao... Is all of this fat coming from the cocao alone? My original post is pertaining to making chocolate drink in as least adulterated manner as palatable and safe for drinking. Yes, I will add milk, honey and chiles. I could use almond milk to add variety. Much of the challenge in diet is lack of variety, moderation and quality. The food processing industry is far from a standard of quality. I think it is important to reintroduce building blocks of our palate structure. Thank you for your post and info Brad. A helpful insight. If you have any data in regards to saturated fat content in cocao before it goes into the processing of a bar and thereafter that would be great. I would like to know more. Enjoy your day.
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Post by timwilde on Mar 25, 2014 15:31:31 GMT -5
The fat content in a cocoa bean is cocoa butter. By definition, this is a saturated fat (hard/solid at room temperature) Someone else may have more information, but from my own research, I havent found any content of unsaturated fats in the cocoa bean. Once processed, other fats may be added, usually limited to milkfat (clarified butter) which I believe by definition is also a saturated fat (not liquid at room temperature).
As for content ratio; it's approximately 50% (by weight) in a cocoa bean. After processing that can be as high as 70%, it depends on the manufacturer. It's higher after processing because usually cocoa butter and or milkfat is added.
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Post by Sebastian on Mar 25, 2014 17:07:36 GMT -5
Roughly 2/3 of the fat in ccb is saturated.
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Post by leekohlbradley on Mar 31, 2014 19:06:49 GMT -5
What about eating cocoa fresh, as a fruit? I visited a plantation recently and it's quite delicious.
If you're looking to visit active cocoa farms, come to Taiwan! There's lots to see besides cocoa trees, too...
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Post by helmsalee on Apr 1, 2014 8:24:21 GMT -5
Raw beans and powder seem to be the way to go as far as nutritional value. I believe it is misinformation to state beans MUST be roasted in order to kill off bacteria. I have received data sheets with bacteria levels, moisture content, coliform etc. from a couple of raw suppliers. In supplying raw beans safe for consumption, the bean is dried to one percent moisture content and may or may not be fermented. Some use an organic citrus disinfectant to kill off contaminants. The MSDS that I have seen from two companies confirms these levels as safe. The ORAC value in raw beans is IMMENSELY higher than roasted beans. I would like to see changes in fermentation and roasting process to reduce damages to nutrients. I don't dought there are some on this path while roasting, but it seems there is a long ways to go to come any were near the beneficial values in raw unroasted cacao. This information is merely coming from various suppliers I have contacted. Only going after flavor is a huge disservice to the benefits of cacao. Human nature, I would like to enjoy the benefits of both, flavor and nutrition.
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Post by Brad on Apr 1, 2014 22:31:31 GMT -5
First of all Helmsalee, have you TASTED raw cocoa? It tastes like crap, and NOTHING like chocolate. If what you are buying tastes like chocolate I have bad news for you. It has been roasted.
With regard to cocoa being dried to 1% relative humidity... Where is it being dried? Certainly not in the country of origin! Most countries are hard pressed to get it to 8%. Even if it has been dried to such an outrageously low value, by the time it gets to you, it will have absorbed moisture. Even the Sahara Desert has a relative humidity of 4-5% on average and seeing that cocoa is very hygroscopic, it will equalized to the surrounding environment.
Further to that, you seem to think that dryness is directly correlated to whether or not it's safe for consumption. Uhh..... NO.
You'd better do some more homework. I promise you that nobody is going to drink your "raw" hot chocolate, and if they do, make sure you have a good insurance policy for when someone sues you for making them sick.
Cheers.
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Post by timwilde on Apr 2, 2014 1:10:03 GMT -5
Helmsalee: you have to keep this in mind. Cocoa plantations are generally used to selling cocoa by the ton for major cocoa manufacturers. These are processed in great scale and fermented in open air, by whatever bacteria is locally available - fermentation is the purposeful cultivation of bacterial colonies on the fruit. The amount of fermentation varies, but unless you own the plantation or a farm, chances are high that you cannot get unfermented beans.
Dried out or not, that bacteria is still live - just in a suspended state. Water, cool temps, and darkness will get them going again. All of those conditions exist in your mouth and digestive tract. For the average person, this may not be an issue, but there *WILL* be someone who is allergic or whose body is intolerant/incapable of killing off some of this bacteria which will allow it to thrive. May be good for you, but as a commercial product it's unlikely you'll stay in business long.
Brad was much nicer than I would be; the idea of raw chocolate is a preposterous idea brought about by yet another pseudoscientific fad diet. These irritate me to no end, and have no real basis in reality. Some things just arent things unless they're processed the way they are. I'd assume since we've been around it for well over 600 years (western culture anyway) and some thousands of years for the tribal south americans and equatorial peoples - if there were a different way to make and consume chocolate, we'd have found it by now.
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Post by helmsalee on Apr 2, 2014 10:46:32 GMT -5
Thank you Brad and Timwilde,
I appreciate your having patience. I can understand it being a challenge to share info with someone without knowledge of cocoa manufacturing and reading a million different things from retailers. For clarity, I have never even made a chocolate bar. I can see you guys going ahhhh, that explains a lot. This is why I am here. To learn from those who quite frankly seem like scholars on the subject. That makes it fascinationg to me. Now do you understand where I am coming from? There is no claim for me to make as I am only speaking of info that has been conveyed to me. Believe me when I say I am all for keeping tradition well. Enough damage has been done already from depleting traditions. I found a post from John titled The Truth about Raw Chocolate. A huge eye opener. I am looking at so called raw beans or powder for the sake of comparison and experience on a surface level. Not a scientist nor a nutritionist. One company(not me) said the drying process reduces the bacteria level but I am of the impression the citrus disinfectant they use is the main way of sterilizing. Actually, I think one distributor only dries and no citrus disinfectant claiming the drying disinfects. So, if the beans are washed first with a disinfectant and then dried that is an important question to ask... How much moisture is being absorbed by the time it gets to my mouth? Thus reintroduction to bacteria. Edison Grainery and Wilderness Family Naturals provided spec sheets if you are interested in comparison. Loving Earth is a company that uses citrus disinfectant. If you have the time, feel free to explain further there numbers. To get away from so much web info, what recommendations can you make for books, dvd's, tours, classes etc. to learn from. Again, thank you for being patient. I can read till I turn blue. Reading up on material is a start but it is helpful to hear from the experienced. At some point we all start from ground zero and uninformed. Take care gang and enjoy your day.
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Post by Sebastian on Apr 2, 2014 19:10:03 GMT -5
Helmsalee - i have managed global cocoa and chocolate research for decades at a very, very high level of performance, with an organization you'd recognize. i can not emphatically state enough that there is no safe 'raw' option to cocoa - regardless of what a given vendor has to say. Remember, they've got a vested interest in selling you something, and none of them are technically savvy enough to recognize food safety issues. They may *believe* they've got a safe, raw product - but that is absolutely, unequivocally, untrue. I have tested most of those products myself.
That said, much, if not all, of the information you need on the topic is already on these boards. Frequent visitors here will know i'm very clear on my position, and have posted extensively on the topic. Rather than re-iterate that, i'd encourage you to peruse the forums, and come back with any questions that you might have that were not previously answered.
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Post by leekohlbradley on Apr 2, 2014 19:48:31 GMT -5
Not to be an ass, but Sebastian, how do we know your background/backing doesn't also represent the vested interests of the current chocolate industry, which makes its money from a highly processed product made with methods inaccessible to smaller companies/individuals? Just playing devil's advocate here
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