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Post by chocoholic on Mar 13, 2008 5:06:05 GMT -5
I have tried several roastings with Ghana beans and something strange has started to happen on every batch... Taste get worse the longer I conche. I only have around half a kg chocolate per batch in the melangeur.
Taste is perfect after 2 hours aprox. If I leave it for another 2 hours sourness and an unpleasant bitterness start to develop.
Anybody experienced this? What an I doing wrong? I am not heating the melangeur during conching.
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Post by Brad on Mar 14, 2008 1:30:52 GMT -5
Chocoholic;
I have a very hard time believing that your chocolate is anywhere close to ready after 2 hours in the Santha.
I leave mine in for anywhere from 36 to 48 hours straight, and most commercial refiners will go at LEAST 6-8 hours.
My guess is that the bitternes you are tasting is the cocoa beans being ground do the point where the bitterness is coming out.
Humor me and let it run for 36 hours. You can even take a batch and put it back in the refiner for another day. It won't hurt it. In fact it will probably do it some good.
After you've let it run for the day, taste it and let me know.
ALSO: Bitterness is significantly related to the amount of shell left in the nibs. The more shell, the more bitterness - BIGTIME.
Oh... One other thing: One pound of chocolate in the refiner is hardly enough to mix it. I usually make around 5-6lbs at a time. In your case, I would try at least 1 to 1.5kg (2-3lb). This should be enough volume to stir it properly.
Brad
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 18, 2008 11:04:40 GMT -5
Brad has some good points. Tasting after 2 hours only tells you where the taste is at 2 hours - it will continue to change. Let it go at least 12 hours and keep tasting.
I will disagree about husk and bitterness as a general rule. I have not found that to be the case in all instances, or even most. Some. That is not to say I advocate husk - it's really hard on the equipment, but I have not found it to be a contributor to bitterness.
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josh
Novice
Posts: 56
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Post by josh on Mar 18, 2008 14:32:47 GMT -5
Dear Choco,
I beg to disagree with both Brad and John and not just on principle as usual but rather in fact this time.
I find that over-conching can be a real problem. I notice this the most when making milk chocolate in the Santha. Generally, I have milk conched and refined to 30 microns in about 3hours. What "the experts" suggest is that you are not going long enough. These may indeed be true. Most chocolates will go "bitter" around the 2hr mark as the sugar breaks down in particle size. At this point you need to attain particle adhesion, that is surrounding the cacao particles with butter and sugar. And at the same time drive off the acid particles=conching. To do this you need heat, no greater than 90C and airation, use a hair drier for 5 or 10 min. Take the lid off to speed this up too. Once you drive off the acids the bitterness will drop dramatically.
Questions, one, are you measuring microns? If so then skip all the rest of the questions. Two, are you starting with liquor or from the bean? Typically, when you order liquor its comes between 200-50 microns, this will affect the conching process. Three, are you using the modifications to the Santha that sugaralchemy suggests? This will dramatically effect the refining/conching time and confuse "the experts". Four, where are your beans from? From John or did you source them? Take 10 out of the bag (pre-roasted) and cut them in half. How many are purple in the middle? If the majority are purple or "slatey" (white streaks) then your beans will always be bitter because they were not fermented correctly. If so, use these bean to make milk chocolate.
Yours Truly, Master of the Jungle
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Post by Brad on Mar 19, 2008 4:50:43 GMT -5
With regard to the content of shell in the chocolate contributing to bitterness, the answer is an unequivocal YES IT DOES.
This is the number one reason why people try so hard to get the shell OUT of the nibs.
The premise of the shell being hard on equipment is hogwash (no offence here John). In the Santha's we're talking about a granite wheel and a granite base. No cocoa bean shell is going to stand up to that, and/or wear it down.
In commercial equipment (I have just purchased two conche/refiners) I have asked about this concept, and the wear is negligible. Both the manufacturers and chocolatiers I've spoken with concur that shell contributes significantly to bitterness in the chocolate.
As far as refining time goes... Well... I guess it's a matter of personal preference. My Santha will chew through almost anything, as I've put a one horse motor in it and a special non slip belt, and after making close to 200lbs of chocolate with the thing, have not yet found a single milk or dark chocolate I would serve to anything other than the garbage can, refined in less than 16 hours. My conche/refine temperature usually reaches equilibrium at 120 degrees F. As a standard I now leave the chocolate in the refiner for at least 36 hours.
Micron Size??? My tongue is the test for that. If it's not completely smooth on my palatte, it's not done. I don't need any special scientific equipment for that test! (and it gives me an excuse to sample more often!)
Happy Chocolate Making.
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 20, 2008 11:14:37 GMT -5
With regard to the content of shell in the chocolate contributing to bitterness, the answer is an unequivocal YES IT DOES. This is the number one reason why people try so hard to get the shell OUT of the nibs. Happy Chocolate Making. This brings up something that I see on a lot of forums and email lists. Please be careful how you make statements. What you say here is YOUR OPINION. It is impossible that it is a 100% verifiable fact. Why? Because bitterness is based on an individual's sensory receptors. What you can say is "With regard to the content of shell in the chocolate contributing to bitterness, the answer is an unequivocal YES IT DOES - TO ME" On a same note, your statement "This is the number one reason why people try so hard to get the shell OUT of the nibs." is an unsupported statement. i.e., again YOUR OPINION. You are saying it is #1 - where is your documentation showing that it tops a list? It is NOT the number one reason I remove the husk. I do it for other flavor reasons (astringency - not bitterness) and tactile differences *I* notice in the finished chocolate. I don't mind at all that you disagree with me on points, but everyone, please keep in mind what is subjective (bitterness), opinion, and fact. It's an easy trap to fall into (I am sure I have done it myself, but I try not to) and leads to mis-information and propagation of "doctrine".
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Post by Brad on Mar 20, 2008 15:24:48 GMT -5
My statement with regard to chaff is based on two solid years of research, and talking to chocolatiers with more experience than you and I combined will ever have. Have I found irrefutable evidence to the contrary? No. Does that give me the right to claim it as a fact? After two years of steady homework "in my opinion" I would say so.
Having said that, a forum is a passive medium for communication, and civil debate (I stress the word civil here). There have been hundreds of statements made on this forum which people accept as inaliable fact - even when the author hides behind an alias. Where is their documentation supporting their statement? Where is your documentation refuting what I say?
Until proven otherwise, I will stand behind everything I state as a fact, and when proven wrong I will be big enough to admit I was wrong, and/or my interpretation of my basis of fact was flawed - just as I did yesterday in the Swiss Chocolate thread.
However.... This is your forum. You can police it as you choose. In the future, to avoid confusion and misconception, I will refer to "bitterness and/or astringency" as "bad taste", which, "in my opinion" bitterness and astringency are synonymous anyway.
Respectfully, Brad.
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Post by chocogeek on May 13, 2008 21:30:02 GMT -5
I just did a quick and simple test which I would advise everyone to try. Grab a pinch of husk and chew thoroughly and check out the taste. It is bitter and astringent at first and if there was a quantity of this in the batch I am sure it would contribute in some way to the 'bitterness' - how much is debatable, but if you let your taste be your guide, you will come to a quick conclusion no doubt.
My sample was from a roasted batch of Dominican Republic '06. It has been about 10 minutes now and the taste is still strong in my mouth. It is a different taste than the bitterness from the nibs or un-roasted beans which are acidic. This is more tannic and tea-like at first and then coats the tongue for a long time and lingers as a dry, dull, taste-blocking kind of bitter, like eating chalk, or chewing on grape seeds. Definitely not good.
I suppose it would be best to follow up this quick taste test with some samplings of several varieties of bean husk to see if there is a varietal component - some types of bean husk more tannic than others. For a full-on test I would think two small test batches of same beans, same roast and conch times, but with one batch that has been doctored up with extra husk would be a good comparison, or just some cocoa butter and small amount of husk, in a ratio similar to what you think might make it into the batch based on your methods of winnowing and conching.
After today, I am going to be more careful with my winnowing. I think the Champion juicer's screen will filter out any remaining husk, but after tasting this, I am now worried that it may grind up some of the husk enough to pass the particles through the Champion screen. I suppose a test of the Champion is in order to determine if that is the case. Will take some coca butter and husk and run it through to see. I suppose that would be a fair test.
I believe that husk will contribute to bitterness if it makes it into the chocolate, just based on my quick taste test. It is just too strong - like I said, aftertaste is like chewing on grape seeds, but not quite that bitter. I suspect lots of polyphenols are in there, because grape seed and tea are loaded with them too.
Remember, John's method is to extract the liquor with the Champion juicer. He may be correct that it doesn't make a difference having some husk in the nibs because the Champion has a fine mesh screen which should prohibit the husk from ever getting into the finished chocolate.
It's tough to run a forum where the subject is a process, the results of which are open to interpretation, opinions and personal taste. Art + science = Alchemy.
Respectfully,
Doug
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Post by hallotp on Jun 7, 2008 21:30:59 GMT -5
I respect everyone who has invested time, money and passion into redefining this craft. That being said, Brad the tone that you take in your posts asserts a certain comprehensive knowledge. The fact that you dont know that difference between bitterness and astringency suggests otherwise. Hallot
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Post by Brad on Jun 8, 2008 23:04:32 GMT -5
Hallot; I find it interesting that your first post in this forum is not to contribute, but rather to incite and/or insult. That's a great start! You'll make lots of friends quickly. Having said that, I'm a "put up or shut up" kind of guy. So far I've "put up": 1. 3 years of research into this business 2. Posts in this forum both asking questions and also volunteering advice based on what I've learned. 3. Over $100,000 of my own cash into the startup of an artisinal chocolate factory, which should officially open its doors in July or August. 4. A professional internet presence, and online purchasing system which, aside from the graphics, I personally wrote the code for. 5. Posts on this forum admitting publicly that I was wrong, when I was wrong. Never once have I claimed to know everything, and I would challenge you to be so audacious as to make that claim yourself. If in fact why don't you put up something.... say.... an order on my website, or even some public information about yourself which qualifies you to be critical of others who volunteer their time to share what they've learned with newbies to the trade. I now challenge you to put up or shut up. Have yourself a great day. Brad Churchill Choklat www.SoChoklat.comOne final note: In Princeton University's Wordnet 3.0 (copyright 2006) Astringent is defined as: 1. sour or bitter in taste [syn: acerb] 2. tending to draw together or constrict soft organic tissue; "astringent cosmetic lotions" [ant: mark] Those reading this can deduce for themselves why I can't tell the difference between bitterness and astringency, when according to a dictionary the words mean more or less the same thing..... Hmmm.......
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Post by eric101 on Jun 10, 2008 8:25:29 GMT -5
The taste chocogeek described sounds to me like tannins. Having worked on making wild persimmon jam several times and having read up on tannins in the process, I can tell you that tannins in the chaffe are likely the source of the "astingency" or chalky taste. They are not really "bitter". Tannins may fade with conching as they do with aged wine - I am not sure. I may try to do a few taste tests myself with this in mind.
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Post by Alan on Jun 10, 2008 9:02:21 GMT -5
In cacao the source of a decent amount of bitterness and astringency are phenolic compounds--alkaloids are also noticeably bitter, but left out of this discussion for reasons of simplifying it. In general the lower molecular weight phenolic compounds are more bitter than astringent, and the higher molecular weight compounds are more astringent. These phenolic compounds can complex with proteins and eventually lose their bitter and astringent qualities.
This complexing of phenolic compounds with proteins is what happens in tanning hide, for example, and it is why polyphenols in cacao that have the same impact on tissue (i.e., the tongue and cheeks) are often referred to as tannins.
Astringency and bitterness really are different properties of a food, and understanding the difference between the two can be difficult, but it is better to look to flavor technologists for definitions than to standard dictionaries.
As for bitterness, we all probably have a decent idea of what bitterness is, but astringency is a little trickier to define. Here is something that I had previously written that goes into a bit of detail:
The tricky thing is that bitterness and astringency are usually present together in chocolate, so you will be experiencing an astringent or "tannic" sensation while at the same time tasting bitterness. Another things that complicates matters is the fact that there are different qualities of bitterness and astringency. For example, if you taste a heavily roasted chocolate as opposed to a very lightly one, you may taste similar amounts of bitterness, but you will notice a difference in their quality as the low-roast bitterness is primarily the low molecular weight phenolic compounds that were present pre-roast, while the high-roast bitterness is generally compounds that have been formed during the roast such as various pyrazines and diketopiperazine complexed with theobromine for example. If cacao is not well-fermented then bitterness from both sources can be quite present. With practice, however, these different qualities of bitterness can definitely be distinguished. And, astringency can definitely be distinguished from bitterness. Any chocolate maker working to perfect his/her chocolate must work to understand the relationship of bitterness and astringency, and also how and why they differ. It is not a simple matter, but it is a necessity.
Best,
Alan
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Post by Brad on Jun 10, 2008 9:18:59 GMT -5
Alan;
Thanks for contributing.
For clarification, what you're describing with the "tannic" sensation is actually the acids present in the chocolate, correct?
This to me would be described by the "vinegary" smell of some cacau as it's being roasted and the acids are being driven off. To me the Porcelana bean I have is VERY tannic while being roasted - literally clears your sinuses - as it's going through the roast.
With this bean I actually use this vinegary smell as a guide to tell me when it's done its roast.
Is that what you mean?
If so, then if the presence of tannins is described as being astringency, I would concur that they are in fact different, as I find 100% cacau to be very bitter. Furthermore, it can be bitter but without the acidic notes (astringency). Would that be a reasonable summation?
P.S. Did you get that quote from Minafi's "Science of Chocolate"?
Best Regards,
Brad
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Post by Alan on Jun 10, 2008 9:55:39 GMT -5
Alan; Thanks for contributing. For clarification, what you're describing with the "tannic" sensation is actually the acids present in the chocolate, correct? This to me would be described by the "vinegary" smell of some cacau as it's being roasted and the acids are being driven off. To me the Porcelana bean I have is VERY tannic while being roasted - literally clears your sinuses - as it's going through the roast. With this bean I actually use this vinegary smell as a guide to tell me when it's done its roast. Is that what you mean? If so, then if the presence of tannins is described as being astringency, I would concur that they are in fact different, as I find 100% cacau to be very bitter. Furthermore, it can be bitter but without the acidic notes (astringency). Would that be a reasonable summation? P.S. Did you get that quote from Minafi's "Science of Chocolate"? Best Regards, Brad Hi Brad, No, acidity is different. It is actually a taste, whereas astringency is a physical/textural sensation. Acidity is another complex topic as acids in cacao can both be volatile or nonvolatile. The acidity that you are describing is primarily a volatile acid called acetic acid, the primary acid in vinegar. It is a byproduct of cacao fermentation. So, to be clear, I'm saying that bitterness, acidity, and astringency are all different qualities of cacao, and all caused by different chemical compounds. If you want to figure out what the astringent or tannic sensation is, make some strong hot tea and let it cool, then taste. The sides of your tongue will kind of pucker up and feel rough. That is the astringent sensation. It is not bitter, though tea also does have bitterness due to alkaloids, and it is not tart. As for where I got that quote, it is part of something I wrote here: patric-chocolate.blogspot.com/2007/12/chocolate-tasting-and-appreciation.htmlIt is not from any book. It is my understanding based on all the reading that I have done. If you want to learn more about this topic, you'll have to look outside of Minifie. He doesn't really deal with it in any depth. I'd start by tracking down every paper referenced by the authors in the chapter related to chocolate flavor in "Industrial Chocolate Manufacture and Use," and go from there. Alan
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Post by eric101 on Jun 10, 2008 11:44:37 GMT -5
Two things. I think the odor you are describing is associated with the fermentation process by-products (lactic acid?) not tannins (astringency).
In practice, will tannins mellow with increased conching?
Eric
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