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Post by joshua on Mar 6, 2006 2:46:03 GMT -5
Has anybody ever tried using other sweeteners, such as maple or agave, to create chocolate. How does this effect the conching process??? Is it still neccesary? I have only made the liquor before and not quite sure where to go from there???
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Post by Alan on Mar 6, 2006 8:40:14 GMT -5
Dear Joshua, Please see this thread for more than you would ever want to know: chocolatetalk.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=diet&action=display&thread=1140852325and yes, for best results, refining and conching of the chocolate liquor are necessary with or without sweetners. As for maple syrup, it sounds like a bad idea to me due to the moisture levels (the chocolate will likely seize and be ruined). Maybe you can use some maple sugar that you have dehydrated at a low temp until all the moisture has been driven out. That's my only thought. Alan
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 6, 2006 9:00:38 GMT -5
Joshua,
Don't take this as an attack, but do NOT NOT NOT conche or refine with any sweetener that is water based unless you want to ruin your equipment. If it flows, it has too much water and will seize your equipment. I speak from experience.
In the interest of research I tried agave for a friend. It cracked the base on my Santha and so overheated my Champion I lost the cutting blade. I repared both, but only because I recognized what was happening and stopped with seconds. Even so, it was basically too late.
As Alan says, you might be able to use a dried maple sugar, but that is just "granulated" per se.
All I can really contribute is that I have found no other natural sweetners that work that are not granulated. Even one "unrefined" cane sugar had too much moisture and I had to abort the batch.
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 6, 2006 11:06:49 GMT -5
The only reason I'd think about using "natural" sugars would be for the purposes of taste. Realistically, they are pretty much all variations on glucose/fructose/sucrose with traces of flavor or color. There's not a major nutritional advantage over simply using the pure form of that ingredient. If you want to try it - with the knowledge it may utterly fail - I would start by spreading a powdered version of the product in a pan in the oven on low heat for a good while, to remove as much moisture as possible. If you get granules, grind them into a powder before they enter the oven. DON'T even think about using a liquid. I'd even consider adding the powder to the chocolate slowly, to further reduce the risk of it clumping up. I suspect that honey, unrefined "raw" sugar, and maple sugar would be great options to try, provided you properly drive off all the moisture and incorporate the powder slowly. (Had John driven off the moisture in raw sugar, I believe it would have worked out for him.) You can find honey powder here, and if you call them they may sell you a single five pound bag instead of the usual six, they're pretty friendly: www.store.honeyvillegrain.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=483Another source of honey powder: www.bulkfoods.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=1&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&txtsearchParamTxt=4115You can also find maple sugar here: www.bulkfoods.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamTxt=4131&txtsearchParamCat=1&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearchOne type of "raw" sugar: www.bulkfoods.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=1&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&txtsearchParamTxt=4147Another type of "raw" sugar: www.bulkfoods.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamCat=1&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&txtsearchParamTxt=4151[NOTE: the forum is really stupid, you may have to copy and paste the above URLs and remove any spaces the forum inserted in order for the links to work] John - how did you manage to crack the base of your santha? That thing is built like a tank... did you super-heat the liquid, or did you manage to get it to seize that badly?
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Post by Alchemist on Mar 6, 2006 15:08:26 GMT -5
John - how did you manage to crack the base of your santha? That thing is built like a tank... did you super-heat the liquid, or did you manage to get it to seize that badly? It seized that badly. Basically the motor, belt and fittings were all stronger than the adhesive attaching the drive to the bottom of the bowl. When the viscosity increased, the mixture refused to move, the motor refused to stop and the adhesive sheered. I should note, I was actually working on making praline, i.e. hazelnut and sugar. Someone wanted agave syrup instead of sugar, so we tried it. Apparently hazelnut paste seizes the same as "cocoa paste" when water is present, at least when subjected to aggresive sheer and mixing. I would never have added any water based product to chocolate, but I did not know at the time other oil based pastes are subject to the same seizing.
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 6, 2006 16:28:44 GMT -5
Impressive! I've worked a lot with nut butters and they can get messy... but they aren't quite like chocolate. They'll certainly seize up in many cases, unless you slowly add the moisture or have an arrangement that can mix through the seizing, I have actually used a heavy duty bread dough capable hook for handling stuff like that. You may also require an emulsifier to obtain the desired level of moisture and smoothness, but rest assured, it can be done.
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Post by joshua on Mar 8, 2006 23:36:03 GMT -5
OK guys... so check this out. I have tried a piece of chocolate that someone made with agave nectar, and it was amazing. Tasted like the real thing...so...the question then becomes how? ? What about mixing it in after the counching process... or stiring it in slowly. Would it still sieze? Also what about using stevia? I mean all you need to do is sweeten the chocolate.. and with stevia you would only have to use a tiny bit.
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Post by sugaralchemy on Mar 9, 2006 0:18:24 GMT -5
As for making chocolate with liquid agave nectar... believe us when we say that adding that much moisture to chocolate is not possible without ending up with something that isn't chocolate. Maybe (and only MAYBE) you could make something like a ganache, but you simply cannot bind up that much moisture within the structure of chocolate without fundamentally changing it. However, I suspect that the chocolate you tasted was either: 1) Made from dried agave nectar - this would resemble crystalline fructose 2) Made from something else, either entirely or predominately, and the package either was unclear about this or simply flat out lied I believe that agave nectar is pretty much fructose syrup. It would be notably sweeter than sugar, and also harsher. It would be more water-attracting and more likely to brown or burn. It would also raise your triglyceride levels (not a good thing!) when consumed, but have a smaller impact on blood sugar than most other sugars. You wouldn't save any calories by using fructose or agave syrup - if you use less syrup, that means more cocoa solids and/or cocoa butter, both of which have more calories. You could try stevia in dry form, and it wouldn't quite utterly destroy the chocolate like agave nectar liquid, but it would not exactly be a great tasting chocolate. Stevia flat out tastes like crap when compared to sugar, and it interacts differently with other flavors. It also contributes no volume, which means your chocolate will actually contain quite a few more calories and a different texture - though at least it would probably resemble chocolate. Stevia is just another high intensity sweetener from a functional perspective. Take a look at this thread where Sebastian and I have contributed a great deal of data that touches on this: chocolatetalk.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=diet&action=display&thread=1140852325Honestly, it is not worth fighting with stevia in chocolate - you'll end up with a nasty-tasting, high calorie, slightly different textured product. I guess "nasty tasting" is subjective, but suffice to say, at least 95% of the population would not find it anywhere near a passable substitute for the real thing, even crappy real chocolate.
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Post by chocowiz on Nov 6, 2006 20:44:29 GMT -5
I had made sugar free chocolate in the pilot plant scale and we used polydextrose, maltitol, and other bulk artificial sweeteners. The product just came out right with the same textural qualities as typical chocolates made with sucrose.
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Post by angioplasty on Nov 12, 2006 6:06:39 GMT -5
Here's a question then. What if one used one of those 'fruit dehydrators' and dried out some strawberries, agave, whatever you wanted, .. make sure they are VERY dry, possibly even throw on the pan for a bit as mentioned earlier grind them up and put them into the mixture. Might add some flavors we are looking for and the more natural sugar.
aaron
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Post by sugaralchemy on Nov 12, 2006 6:28:30 GMT -5
The fruit is going to be hard to get low enough in terms of moisture. Maybe freeze dried fruits would be better. Also, the taste, at levels sufficient to add sweetness, is going to be pretty strong for most fruits. Theirr fibrous nature might also be problematic unless run through a food processor first.
If you're going to work so hard, the real question I ask is... why? I mean, most berries are fructose, glucose, sucrose and perhaps traces of a few other sugars... why not just use those sugars? Or use "sugar in the raw" if you want that feel-good quality. Or look into using maltitol - it's the closest thing to sugar but not. And technically, maltitol is even natural.
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Post by Sebastian on Nov 12, 2006 7:47:08 GMT -5
AP - certainly you can do that - you'll likely hit viscosity issues however, as fruits contain 'sticky' sugars such as fructose and others, which are very hard to work with in chocolate. It can be done, but don't expect it'll handle similarly to chocolate made with table sugar. I'd like to hear your experience with it if you try! If less processed sugars are what you're after, you might also consider something like evaporated cane juice (it's a low moisture (i think 4-5%?) granular sugar crystal, turbinado colored, and works well in chocolate).
Not sure I'd call maltitol natural (it's made by catalytic hydrogenation of maltose - yes i know it's present naturally in some cells, but not in quantities sufficient to be naturally extracted commercially)). There's no legally binding definition of 'natural', which may be part of the problem in attempting to define what is and isn't, but the most commonly accepted listing is a list that's published by a large natural products store in the US..
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Post by sugaralchemy on Nov 12, 2006 14:46:56 GMT -5
Right, in the "US" natural is a very unclear term. However, in most cases, natural is applied to a substance if it occurs in nature, and maltitol certainly does. I believe in countries that do regulate it, maltitol is considered a natural substance.
For anybody who does try working with alternative sugars, I suggest you use extra cocoa butter and possibly extra lecithin and use a little lower level of total sweetening ingredients as a percentage of the product. Add the sweetener slowly. All these items mentioned are generally more hygroscopic and/or moist, which tends to produce a more viscous chocolate.
My only question is *why* are you trying this? If your goal is health, sugar from a berry is not terribly different than sugar you can blend yourself - and a lot less expensive, easier to work with, more clean taste profile, etc. If you want a nice taste, try a flavor or a small amount of fruit - the quantity required to get sweetness is likely overpowering in terms of taste, not to mention acidity. Evaporated cane juice, despite the positive connotation, is no better for you than sugar. All the vitamins in the world won't impact the simple fact that every sugar breaks down into glucose and fructose in your body, both of which can be problematic in excess.
I will note, provided your evaporated cane juice is dry, it will make a very nice chocolate. The taste is a touch different - more noticeable in milk and white than dark - but it certainly works. Commercially, you'll find it in "natural" or "organic" chocolates because it "sounds" better than "sugar" even though that's what it is. It's also used in vegan chocolates - that or various other grain-based sweeteners - because bone char filters are used by some companies in the production of white sugar.
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Post by angioplasty on Nov 12, 2006 21:19:52 GMT -5
I was just answering a question kind of by asking another one. Folks were talking about using other stuff to sweeten or flavor than sugar and I just piped in. The topic raised a question and I asked is all. My reply was actually more towards the flavoring aspect, and throwing in the 'sweetening' properties as well. Granted I am still very new at this all and was just probing to see what I can learn.
Aaron
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