|
Post by munerita on Nov 2, 2014 17:41:44 GMT -5
Talking about cocoa quality for fine chocolate, what do you think about the hybrids (i.e. CATIE hybrids) regarding organoleptic characteristics? I have been reading here, at the C-Spot and other forums, but is quite confusing the information. I asked a friend that is a chocolatier and he told me that CATIE varieties sometimes are very good but sometimes are terrible. I am not sure if the problem should be in the post-harvest process or is just the genetics. Do any of you has experience with it? what do you recommend to somebody that is planning to start a small cocoa plantation but is targeting fine chocolatiers to sell the beans? criollo? hybrids?
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Nov 2, 2014 19:17:25 GMT -5
they can be quite good, just as paint can be quite good in the hands of a skilled artist. however - just as with paint - in the hands of someone who doesn't know what to do - if you don't know how to ferment, dry, mill, conch, etc - it can be a train wreck.
|
|
|
Post by kevin on Nov 3, 2014 13:27:49 GMT -5
Yeah I too think it is all so confusing because I guess it is all tangled up and hard to either grow or find true varietals. Domori in my my humble opinion makes great chocolate and he says genetics are most important. Others say soil and still others say what Sebastian wrote about ferment, drying and all the rest. I guess a little bit of everything matters.
CATIE is interesting because I hear a lot of people do not like the taste of their hybrids but I also read somewhere recently that they have worked on something called an R clone that might actually taste like something good.
If I had land to grow cacao I would select the best genetic material I could find that has the best reputation for flavor and go from there.
|
|
|
Post by cheebs on Nov 3, 2014 13:53:50 GMT -5
Claudia... There are many folks in Nicaragua that can help you get sorted out with high-quality genetics. I just sent you a message with the contact for Alba Alvarez, of Cacaonica.
|
|
|
Post by munerita on Nov 4, 2014 11:36:21 GMT -5
Yes, it is interesting and I think is not an easy issue. Producing and testing the quality, disease resistance and productivity of a clon, or of a new variety requires years of testing and study. I was reading that Catie clons R4 and R6 were selected as one of the best cocoa varieties in the 2009 Salon du Chocolat. Apparentely these clons are the best in terms of yields, resistance to diseases and organoleptic quality.
There are a lot of efforts in Nicaragua to grow varieties of fine cocoa, still a lot of work to do, but I think they are in the right path. Recently the Cocoa of Excelence Program helped to select the best varieties in the country that will be next year in the International Cocoa Awards to compete with samples from around the world. The company Ingemann was the winner with its famous varieties (chuno, rugoso, nicalizo), and two local cocoa cooperatives won the second and third place, although I don't know yet which varieties are using those cooperatives. It will be interesting to follow up them next year.
Thanks to all, all information is highly appreciated! And thanks Carlos, I already wrote to Alba...will let you know!
|
|
|
Post by kevin on Nov 4, 2014 14:19:15 GMT -5
Interesting because from what I gather CATIE R clones are planted intermixed with other cacaos so I do not know how the Salon can determine their flavor from that alone unless they are sorted before the fermentation. Also I read on somebody's blog that the Ingemann varieties are just different colored Amelonados or variations on the Amelonado theme. Anybody know anything about that?
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Nov 4, 2014 17:54:33 GMT -5
There's a significant effort underway to identify the genetic elements that contribute to flavor. If you genotype the tree, you can map it's flavor elements (if you standardize post harvest processing). Remember that there is no one 'flavor' of a bean - almost 50% of the flavor potential of a bean comes from how you ferment, dry, mill and further process it. It's quite possible to make both phenomenal and dismal chocolate out of the same genetic stock, if it's been treated differently post harvest. Post harvest control is a fantastically large field that very, very, very few people understand well. Domori may believe that genetics are the most important (and actually, they are, slightly over 50% of the flavor potential is determined by the genetics) - but most folks who make such a statement do so for marketing purposes, or do so based on a belief - but not actual first hand knowledge of - what it is they're saying.
|
|
|
Post by kevin on Nov 5, 2014 14:04:19 GMT -5
Sebatian, who is taking part in the effort to identify the genetic elements that contribute to flavor?
Also, Domori has had a long term deal with the Franceschis in Venezuela which provided him direct experience.
|
|
|
Post by munerita on Nov 5, 2014 18:44:13 GMT -5
I have been reading and talking with other people growing fine cocoa in central America. There are consensus in that genetics is important BUT, postharvesting could be more important if it is done properly as mentioned by Sebastian. Catie hybrids apparently requires more time for the fermentation. In the CATIE Catalogue of clones they mention up to 5 days in wooden boxes (under Costa Rican environmental conditions) and direct exposure to sun during drying had the best results. Also they mention that since some clones has different bean sizes it is not recommended to mix the beans during fermentation. I think I forgot to mention that my idea is to begin a cocoa farm in Nicaragua (a small one) but since we want to target fine chocolatiers we want to do things right or at least give it a try! of course we will need to standardize postharvest or work with the local cooperatives that have been doing a good job with postharvesting. In the long long term I hope to learn enough to become a chocolatier myself, but I am still far away from your experience. So, still we are not sure which variety or varieties we will chose for our farm, but I will let you know and if interested I can share with you our experience.
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Nov 8, 2014 6:01:28 GMT -5
Kevin - There are many who do a little with regards to understanding the genetic impact to cocoa flavor. Mars is the company most involved and advanced in it, via their partnership with IBM and USDA_ARS.
Munerita - you will end up mixing various bean sizes no matter what you do - cocoa genetics are interesting in that each individual bean can express a different phenotype than the bean next to it while still in the pod. variation in bean sizing is simply unavoidable i'm afraid. remember that VERY few people who grow cocoa understand cocoa. it's a far more complex thing than most people realize, and growers - while an incredibly important step in the logistics chain - almost never really understand what they're doing or why they're doing it - even though many of them believe that they do. lots of myth out there.
|
|
|
Post by munerita on Nov 18, 2014 16:25:52 GMT -5
Thank you very much Sebastian! it is really fascinating the cocoa genetics it will be a real challenge to do this experiment in our farm.
|
|
|
Post by Sebastian on Nov 18, 2014 18:54:26 GMT -5
Looking forward to hearing about it!
|
|
|
Post by ning1 on Oct 3, 2016 21:11:15 GMT -5
Wow, I hope we have made some progress since the last posting in this thread, I own a small farm in Malaysia and want to do things right.
Sebastian, I read that the recognition for DNA selection based on flavor is gaining interest, sounds logical, but the science driving this thought is not clear to me, say compared to wine making.
Any suggestions are welcome. Lets say I'm willing to start from scratch (actually will be grafting), what are the test(s) to run on the available genetic material and which traits to select? It seems that even some research is based on organoleptic test, and I hope there are other more science-based alternatives.
|
|
|
Post by bmikiten on Oct 4, 2016 22:08:53 GMT -5
Have you looked at the work done by Penn State? I'm reading their papers on flavor development and some of the genetics and specific flavor compounds that may help you.
Brian
|
|
|
Post by ning1 on Oct 9, 2016 9:02:44 GMT -5
Have you looked at the work done by Penn State? I'm reading their papers on flavor development and some of the genetics and specific flavor compounds that may help you. Brian I haven't , but will be searching for it shortly. Thank you.
|
|