Raw chocolate making

[littleblue]

These are our suppliers: www.ecoandino.com/en/products-organic-super-foods/cacao

[littleblue]

Another company - again, not mine - who claim low heat roasting, below 115º, and they state, roasted at a lower temperature. www.sacredchocolate.com/Raw-Cacao.html

We now have a piece of paper that shows what happens with my cacao, and what temperature it goes up to. 115ºF is just over 46º Celsius. The temperature for my nibs is no more than 45ºC for drying, there is no mention of roasting. I'm actually wondering if they're calling the roasting "conditioning for extracting butter" on my data sheet? I am now thoroughly confused, it's twenty to one in the morning and my brain is fried! G'night.

[Brad]

Littleblue:

The rules for raw are clear: ANYTHING OVER 120 DEGREES IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED RAW.

I quote from your post: "Conditioning for extracting butter (80-85ºC short time)"

That is 176 degrees Farenheit - the bottom temperature for a home oven, and 11 degrees higher than what is required to effectively pasteurize foods.

???REALLY?

That's like the guy saying to the girl "How pregnant can you be? I only stuck it in for a second!"

Repeat this to yourself v e r y s l o w l y so it sinks in: 'IF IT TASTES LIKE CHOCOLATE IT HAS BEEN ROASTED AND IS NO LONGER RAW AND SHOULD NEVER BE CALLED RAW."

geesh...

As far as Sacred Steve goes... I AND numerous others have had many online debates with him, and as far as we've all determined, that guy has smoked waay too much loco weed in his day. He has all but dropped off the face of the earth in the past couple of years as far as online posting goes, because he's been continually lambasted for making claims that he can't substantiate. This is another great example of unadulterated BS in the chocolate industry. Want another? Look up Xocai.

I'm sorry to burst your gently roasted raw bubble.

[littleblue]

Yup - that's why we're now using the nibs, which don't get the 80º treatment - thanks in part to you making me look again and ask more questions, but it was also the next batch to be used to try and find out what works best and what is best for our customers. The results are delicious, but as you said, not "chocolate" as it's classically known.

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that some suppliers may just be changing the name of things to be able to say un-roasted when they mean nothing of the sort. The nibs we have are borderline - they say 45ºC maximum, which is pretty borderline, so I think what I will do with the nibs chocolate is put a note about what actually happens to the nibs and how we make it and how we keep our temperatures down at this end and let the consumer decide if it's raw or just un-roasted or what it is.

One bug bear with your video link, btw - they use IR thermometers, one of which I have sitting at the back of the drawer. I find them of very little use, because they only ever measure the surface temperature, you cannot find out what's going on underneath. I did an experiment when I was working with chocolate in baking where I used the IR thermometer on the chocolate and then used an immersed thermometer that was correctly calibrated, and the whole thing was off by several degrees, even though the chocolate was constantly stirred. So saying 110ºF and using an IR thermometer may, in itself, be misleading - it's also why a lot of chefs don't use them to check oven temperatures, we need the air temperature, not the temperature of the metal plates lining the oven.

I'm glad you made me look again, and I'm pleased to be looking into it closer; I had got caught up in trying to get all the other things done that needed doing to get the business running. I've also been overwhelmed, repeatedly, by the vast amounts of conflicting information from a wide variety of sources, not helped by the lack of official classifications/regulations over here to say what is or isn't anything. Even the word chocolate is misleading - in the EU/UK you can make chocolate solids with up to 5% vegetable fat that isn't cacao butter. To me that is not chocolate, that is flavoured vegetable lard. So it's no wonder everyone, including the public, is confused.

Could you please point me to the piece of legislation on raw chocolate that gives 120ºF, as I can only find people referring to 110ºF outside of the video you showed me. To have that bit of leeway would be useful, and would let us give that to our customers to decide as well. The only governing body who has any kind of say on the raw chocolate thing over here is the Vegan society, and they still give out the cocoa powder and butter advice being as they want people making something that isn't full of animal products. They clearly don't do raw and I can find no body or authority here who are responsible for raw who actually have an interest in that rather than saving fluffy puppies.

We are trying very hard to avoid the über hippy freaky edges of chocolate, where it's all goddesses and emetics or seems to be, and excuses for doing way too much pot, but for some these guys carry weight, so we have to read what they have to say, even if we have tears of laughter running down our faces as we do so. Sometimes there is something there that you can use despite it being wrapped up in mumbo jumbo.

While I have your ear, and hopefully not worn it out - there is something I need to do, I need to filter the chocolate. It is gritty when it comes out of the melangeur and I want to filter it without losing chocolate and without heating it again, is there any way of doing that, and if so, is there any way of doing it that won't cost me another £1,000 as everything right now seems to be doing!

[littleblue]

I had a great reply back from the people I mentioned yesterday who are doing un-roasted chocolate and offering what appeared to be "raw" chocolate as to their stance right now, thought you might like to read it.

"Hi Natalie

"Thanks for getting in touch, your welcome.

"I think the confusion is being created by the term raw. I’m guessing the EU has strict guidelines on anything using that term.

"All ‘raw’ chocolate makers as far as I am aware are using imported cacao beans/powder/butter which has been fermented and dried. As soon as a pod has been harvested the beans will start to ferment in the pulp surrounding them, so it’s not a process that can really be avoided completely. It is a natural process.

"So, I don’t believe unfermented beans are really possible, if you can find beans which have been minimally fermented then they may not achieve a good flavour, as fermentation is turning the harsh acids into vinegars which produce the nice fruity chocolate flavours in the beans. When we buy beans we are looking for really good fermentation. Without this I think the chocolate would be unpalatable.

"We decided to stop using the term raw, and instead label our chocolate made from beans which are not roasted as ‘minimally processed’ or ‘unroasted’ as we feel that more accurately describes the product. All of our beans have been fermented and dried to a high standard. We feel the term ‘raw’ is incorrect, and that the chocolate makers using this term are going along with the trend without giving it proper thought, or simply ignoring the facts to be able to key into a market looking for raw diet products. ‘Raw’ chocolate makers are basically saying their cacao has not been roasted, and has been treated at low temperatures to retain super high antioxidant levels. I think this is true (although I also know that roasted dark chocolate retains enough antioxidants to still be a very valid health product), I just don’t think ‘raw’ is an accurate term for any food that has been substantially processed.

"Mott Green of Grenada Chocolate Co. (who tragically passed away recently), was the first person I met who questioned the term raw, simply saying there was no such thing. Then our friend from Maranon said the same thing.. so there was two people directly engaged with the growing and processing of cacao at origin who were saying that raw was a fraud / marketing term created by chocolate makers far removed from the farms.. this made us begin to question the term.

"So, to clarify, all cacao products (beans, powder, butter) considered ‘raw’ being imported into the UK, have been fermented to some degree and dried.

"I have heard that they are also often sprayed / fumigated or treated on entry to the UK! This definitely happens on entry to USA. I have also heard that organic foods are treated with pesticides on entry at ports, which is terrible.. I don’t know what’s really true here, and sit on the fence with various conspiracy theories.. I was on a plane recently and they did actually spray the inner cabin with a pesticide! unbelievable, but true.

"Something I would add, although regrettably.. There is also the risk of of ecoli in a ‘raw’ / ‘unroasted’ chocolate. It is something any ‘raw’ chocolate maker should be aware of. We recently visited a chocolate maker in Italy, who was very proud to show us how the measures they had taken to ensure that no raw / unroasted cacao would enter their products, keeping the unroasted beans and roasted beans in separate containers, using different tools to handle them etc. This was to avoid any chance of harmful bacteria entering the finished product. They had been making fine quality chocolate for 25 years, and had a fantastic small batch facility, they really knew their production techniques, and have a beautiful product (Guido Castagna).. It is a serious issue: if beans are contaminated with harmful bacteria at source, which is a definite hazard given that most cacao is poorly fermented (under leaves etc) and dried on farms where birds, rodents etc can roam amongst them, then it could lead to a finished product which could potentially be seriously harmful to the consumer. We have considered stopping production of our ‘unroasted’ chocolate on this basis, even though we have been assured that the cacao is being treated in very hygienic conditions (on a processing facility separate from the farms) there is no guarantees... sorry to add that...

"To seek more info, I’d recommend contacting ‘raw’ chocolate companies to see what their stance is, bearing in mind that there are very few chocolate makers actually working with beans.. one is Raw Goodies, Carlos is really nice and he’d be worth speaking to. Up here in Scotland there is IQ ingredients.

"Check out this video about ‘raw’ butter and powder production by Big Tree farms : www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XEXFBSgkQM
Also Pacari claim to have created a genuinely ‘raw’ butter pressing technique."

Interesting that she doesn't even know her own legislation, but a bit worrying, too! As I said, this is their stance, their reply, not my words, so if your blood pressure is playing you up, it's not down to me this time!

[Brad]

Littleblue;

I'm glad you're starting to ask the questions, and are starting to get the same answers I did, and have been giving you for a few days now.

I'm sure you can also start to understand why, as a legitimate and ethical chocolate "maker", I get frustrated by so much deflective and misguided marketing.

We have had an exchange now for a couple of days which has caused you to (at times) attempt to refute my claims, and also question what you are doing. It's made you a more educated chocolatier. Just imagine however, a devout "raw chocolate" customer walking through our doors and giving me 30 seconds to refute what they have been told by the hippies down the street while they all spent several hours hitting the bong!!

Regardless of how polite I am, I'm the jerk even though I'm the one being 100% honest and forthcoming about everything including pathogen risk!

Sometimes the only way to get through to a person is make them mad enough they will do their homework to prove me wrong, and on their own journey realize they have sometimes been led down the wrong path to start with.

...and like I sad at the beginning, I never even touched on the pathogen issue relating to raw chocolate!

As far as legislation goes around the 120 degree point, I don't know the answer to that. I've never worried about it because we roast all of our beans. I have replied to posts and correspondence on the premise that this is a commonly accepted and never refuted temperature point for raw enthusiasts, so have never had occasion to research it further.

In any case, with regard to your chocolate being gritty, the answer is very simple: refine it longer. When I was making chocolate at home in my modified Santha, I let it run for as long as 48 hours. It doesn't do it any harm. In fact I have read that in the old days, chocolate would be conched for as long as 72 hours. Our Porcelana is conched in our modern machines for that long just to reduce volatility due to the high acid content.

Let it run for a couple of day as an experiment and let me know how it turns out. I'm sure you will be very pleased with the flavour and texture.

Cheers
Dr. Evil

[littleblue]

Hi Brad, and thanks for taking the time at the weekend to reply. I shall, indeed, chuck it all back in the Santha and let it run. It seems to be getting there, and it seems to be doing well, it just has a bitter edge now that I'm hoping will smooth out as it goes along. I'm certainly on a massive learning curve as far as the Criollo is concerned, almost vertical given the time scales involved.

Re the pathogens involved, that did concern me, e-coli is not something to treat lightly and I have gone back to our people again and again and found that the beans are washed with a solution that is organic compatible but which effectively sterilises the beans. Knowing how careful I am with the dishwasher and how something can still escape in there, never mind a massive bean washing process, I'm still a bit wary and think I will at the very least heat the products over 40ºC as a minimum requirement (40ºC for 40 minutes in an acid environment kills all eColi). I'm also going to try roasting some of the nibs before I grind them, to see if that changes the processing time of the chocolate.

On the temperature reading front - I put the Santha into the oven today to warm everything and dug out the old IR thermometer - the surface temperature on the chocolate was 28ºC, but when I used my more reliable probe it rapidly climbed to 41ºC, so I would now even question the temperatures that Big Tree are quoting if they are only using an IR thermometer.

I don't think it is in our interest, or that of our customers, for us to sell a dangerous or misleading product - you'll be glad to know that we now officially do NOT sell raw chocolate!

I'm sorry I can be a bit hard to get through to sometimes, it's not willfull, I do want to learn, I just have an overload issue at times with all the information that comes at me. Hopefully you'll get to know me better and find out why I sometimes stamp my foot, shout no, leave the room for 15 minutes then come back and say, ok, we do it that way. It takes me longer these days to get my head around things, and when something new arrives it takes me a major effort now to adjust to it, but I'm not unwilling to do so.

Thank you for your patience, and I'll let you know how that chocolate gets on in the Santha.

Natalie

[Brad]

Awww... Geez... Now that I've learned you're just stubborn I feel guilty for calling you a liar and a moron...

I'm sorry.

I noticed that this thread is attracting a lot of readers so I thought I'd add this:

If you're interested in some information on pathogens and cocoa beans, here is a link to a document I provide my customers when they ask me about raw chocolate. It has some great links to further information to substantiate what a more stubborn reader doesn't get from the common sense I write and photos that support it. (haha! just joking)

www.sochoklat.com/data/documents/RawChocolate.pdf

Cheers
Brad

[shrey]

Hi,

Here i shown the Recipe to make an Raw Chocolate try it.
Ingredients:
- 100g CHOC Chick Raw Cacao Butter
- 6 Tablespoons CHOC Chick Raw Cacao Powder
- 2-4 Tablespoons Sweet Freedom or Agave Syrup
- 1 Small pinch of rock salt (Optional - use good quality sea salt to lift the chocolate flavour)


Additions:
1. Lavender & Vanilla: a couple pinches dried lavender + 1 extra vanilla bean, scraped
2. Lemon & Sea Salt: zest of one lemon + an extra pinch sea salt
3. Smoky Spice: a couple pinches ground cinnamon + chipotle.
4. Ginger & Coconut: a couple pinches ground ginger + a sprinkling of shredded coconut
5. Lime & Cardamom: zest of one lime + a couple pinches cardamom
6. Spicy Orange: zest of 1 organic lemon+ a pinch of chili powder
7. Rose love: a few drops of rose essential oil + dried rose petals for decoration
8. Crunchy Mint: a few drops of mint essential oil + 1 Tbsp. unhulled hemp seeds

[Brad]

I just visited this company and read that they are "committed to transparency", so I sent them an email and asked them to read this thread and explain how their products are "RAW".

I doubt they'll respond. Most don't when I send emails like this because they have no way to reply without looking foolish. I could be wrong in this case though. I guess we'll see.

Brad

[littleblue]

Brad - let me know when you get to the point of calling them morons. Choc Chicks put themselves up as an "authority" on raw chocolate, you should like them, at least as a chew toy...

[cheebs]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but ANY SORT OF ROASTING will immediately invalidate any claim to being "raw." Plus, if you taste an unroasted bean, you'll see why roasting an essential part of flavor development.
Glad to see you have since rescinded your "raw" claim.

[lyndon]

I'm just glad the 2 of you have decided to be friends now

[Brad]

All's good. I sent an email off to Choc Chick's last night. Let's see what comes of that! I put a link to this thread in the email, so.....

Hopefully they respond, or at the very least read the entire thread and question their product offerings. Then again, maybe THEY are the ones to offer a truly raw product. After all there's a first for everything!

Cheers
Brad

[littleblue]

Brad - any reply back yet? Also, did you write to the guys selling raw hot chocolate that you could make raw by using cooler milk? Or did you decide they'd passed the point of reason?

Natalie