Raw chocolate making

[Brad]

Raw is raw. Period. Admitting that your raw ingredients are "gently roasted" but aren't advertised as such makes you a liar to the consumer if you advertise your product as raw.

Notice how the other replies are NOT defending you? Others think the same way, but are more polite to liars than I am.

You can play the "legislation card" and keep rationalizing that what you are doing is right. However you aren't going to fool anyone on here or other chocolate related forums. Instead you'll just continue looking foolish and soon nobody will answer your questions or respond to your posts.

The repercussions will be to you and not me.

[littleblue]

Doing further research - as I'm neither a moron, an idiot, nor a liar - and I found this:

www.the-chocolate-tree.co.uk/raw-chocolate-fact-or-fiction/

"As there is no regulatory body for this kind of terminology, it’s something that we may just have to accept."

Sadly, whilst agreeing with you, it does state my point, again, in respect to EU legislative bodies. Whilst I am now going to contact them in respect of how they are importing un-roasted beans, did you notice they don't say unfermented, a process which regularly goes above 110º, technically negating raw according to the definitions I have seen? Would you also describe fermented beans as not being raw?

On an aside:

Your attitude towards someone who is operating legally and who has bothered to do her homework, who is just starting out and who actually cares enough to continue to research after you make your points - albeit rudely and negatively - is frankly despicable. I know a lot of people who would have blanked you, blocked you and asked who died and made you Queen of the World. I know even more who aren't as bright or as capable as me who would have been destroyed if you spoke to them the way you spoke to me. For those already in an industry that has been a closed shop for nigh on two centuries there is a requirement to encourage and foster exploration into it, to gently steer to the right path, not simply to slam doors in faces, call people names and shut them down. As someone who succeeds you're supposed to be an ambassador, not an executioner.

[littleblue]

Oh, and if you'd bothered to do your homework, you'd find on our website that we state our beans are fermented, slow pressed and gently roasted. Just FYI. Check the page data on the FAQ and you'll find that information pre-dates your accusations. Homework - there's a reason we should all do it.

[kevin]

I found this summary about raw chocolate to be pretty good:

www.c-spot.com/editorials/the-raw-truth/

[Brad]

Littleblue;

I had to laugh when you posted the link and said "sadly, whilst it does agree with you..."

I guess I DO my homework.

Just because you're operating "legally" doesn't mean you're operating ethically.

Here's another great video on "Raw Cocoa" from someone who actually DOES make it:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XEXFBSgkQM

Do you know why I point fingers, kick sand and call idiots like you names? Here's why:

I got into this industry because I was a seriously pissed off customer who was lied to by people like you almost every time I asked a question. I'd walk into a chocolate shop, and ask if they made chocolate. The clerk would say "Oh Yes! The owner makes chocolate downstairs!" Then I'd see the owner pouring chocolate chips into a melter and making his confections with it! he no more made chocolate in his basement than I made my truck in my garage.

I did three years of research, and learned to MAKE chocolate of a quality that would rival the best in the world, and then I set out to open a shop to lend credibility to what I was about to do - point fingers at MORONS like you who twist words and make products that mislead people.

This industry NEEDS someone like me who points fingers and calls BS when it is BS, and you know what? Some of the most prolific and well respected chocolate professionals in the world have been through my tiny little shop in Calgary to see for themselves what I've been doing! The best part is that after seeing what I've been doing, I can pick up the phone and today they answer on the 2nd ring!

My very outspoken website gets 3.2 MILLION hits a year, and my business continues to grow at an exponential rate, which tells me there are a lot of consumers out there who feel lied to as I do, but don't have the energy to make a difference. However they respect the fact that I do stand up and make a difference, and are loyal to me.

Am I an ambassador or executioner? Well... I have made over 550 posts on this site and close to the same amount on another site in the past few years - many of which answer questions and help small businesses and home hobbyists make yummy stuff. In doing so I have amassed a very significant following who email me regularly with technical questions, and also requests to visit me when they are in Calgary.

People read my posts time and again because they are pragmatic, written in colloquial terms, and are technically correct.

Having said that, do I care what you or other chococolatiers (aka competition) think of me? Absolutely not! In fact you should FEAR me if you are in business and lying to people about what you are doing. I'm the one guy that many many people in this industry know and respect enough to call you out publicly.

My chocolate is made legally AND ethically. Too bad one can't say that about yours. In the meantime, you say you're an intelligent person. Well, stop writing stupid, contradictory things and show the rest of the members that you ARE intelligent. Oh.... and see how STILL nobody is defending you? There's a reason.

Signed
A Seriously Pissed Off Consumer Turned Chocolate Maker

[littleblue]

Shame you've ignored the potential to turn those hits into customers by selling on line, eh?

This is the state of "raw" chocolate in the UK - now if you want to change that, don't shout at me, shout at the EU legislation. Because right now, over here, the British recognise this as raw, they accept this as raw and they expect this when raw is said.

www.elementsforlife.co.uk

[Brad]

LittleBlue:

LMAO!!! You throw out little sarcastic jabs which will continue to make you look stupid.

Now you should take an economics course!

In a city of a million people, I don't need to sell over the internet and ship elsewhere. The local demand for my chocolate is such that my stores can barely keep up as it is.

Think about it for a second: If 6 million lbs of chocolate is consummed annually in your own community and you can't sell enough to make yourself incredibly wealthy in THAT market, you need to seriously re-evaluate your business model, because you're doing something really really wrong.

Now THAT, in spite of your snotty jab, is a very intelligent and economically sound piece of business advice.

Oh... and my customers CAN order online! In fact they CAN select their own truffle combinations, and then pop into one of my stores and pick up their orders fresh-made for them.

Brad

[littleblue]

But you only supply your local area, you're ignoring the rest of the world - and if your product is as good as you believe it is, why would you do that?

[Brad]

Littleblue:

You absolutely KILL me!!!! I damned near fell out of my chair laughing when I visited your website!!!

The folks on this site will like this one! It's definitely a first!

HEY EVERYBODY, GO TO LITTLEBLUE'S WEBSITE AND BUY HER "RAW HOT CHOCOLATE".

Are you kidding me?

Who sees the humor in THIS product?

BAAAAAA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

...but then again we all know it's gently roasted raw!

LMFAO

Littleblue... thanks for brightening my day. Your website is just as entertaining as www.PeopleofWalmart.com.

Brad

[addendum] We have another stupid question above! "But you only supply your local area, you're ignoring the rest of the world - and if your product is as good as you believe it is, why would you do that? " Duh..... It's because I SELL OUT locally. What am I going to sell to the rest of the world moron? Vapour Chocolate? Do I need to start writing my posts here in crayon?

[littleblue]

You're not inspiring fear here, you're inspiring frustration, perhaps aiming for respect would be a better for you. You clearly have a degree of knowledge, I clearly want to learn and you're acting as a road block to all of that. No doubt this argument is also putting off other people who would otherwise have approached you. For a start, after 48 years on this planet, one thing I know is that 3 years is not long enough to know everything - after 30 years of sailing boats in Europe I don't know US waters or regulations well enough to comment on those, so maybe after 3 years you don't know UK regulations or markets well enough to comment on them? I certainly wouldn't use my knowledge of European waterways to look down on someone else because their knowledge was less than mine in that area, that's the quickest way in the world to look like the kind of person everyone goes quiet around and looks away from.

The link I gave you with the "snotty" comment was intended to show you the state of the UK market right now and what raw is over here. Now, you can beat your chest and holler all you like that you don't think x or y, but it's not just me you're up against, it's the whole of Europe. You think you're man for the job, you go for it, be my guest, take on Lindt and others and get the labelling and the laws changed and definitions written out properly. Because after 35 years of trying to get universal food labelling, ensure no child labour is involved in manufacture or farming and trying to get everyone to talk to their suppliers at ground level instead of middle men *I* clearly have a long way to go, and I have the advantage of knowing the system over here.

My customers are in no doubt about how our chocolate is made, it's there, on the, website, bold as brass, we're *proud* to show our customers how much care we take with our chocolate. We also tell our customers that we're new, that we're just starting out, that we're on a journey of learning to give them the best that we can, and that message will never change, because even if we are in the business, learning 24/7 every single day for the next 50 years we will still be learning and we will still be discovering. To stop and say "I know it all" is arrogant and foolish as well as preparing you to fall.

I would hope in 3 years time if someone says to me something about a subject I only have one perspective on that I will take the time and the trouble to find out, to pause, to ask questions of them before I attempt to pillory them on the alter of my own ego. Because who knows, by spreading knowledge and encouraging others it may improve the industry for all of us and it may get more voices to my or your causes. But lambasting people who dare to say they have checked with the growers and they are convinced that the local definition is what they are making is really quite outrageous.

Now, I really don't care what you do from this point, not one jot, but you can either stop and consider things, or you can just carry on blinkered and ignore the entire rest of the world. That's your choice, your call. I'm here to learn and I intend to do so, and I will keep asking questions of everyone I can find until I get as much knowledge as I possibly can given a human lifespan.

[littleblue]

And yeah, like I said - this is what the UK and Europe call "RAW". www.elementsforlife.co.uk This is not my website, it is someone bigger than me.

[littleblue]

`Oh hey - just watched your video - now I know why my cacao butter isn't white and why it's full of bits. It's raw. Thank you!

[Brad]

Littleblue;

You need to be a bit more clear in your communication. When I referred to that company's site as yours, I believed it to be yours based on the way you wrote your post.

You made a statement, and then ended with a website. Many people use their websites as signatures these days.

In the future, maybe use a semi-colon to denote continuance of the sentence.

I'm totally cool with you asking questions, and if I don't know the answer I have the means to get it when many people don't. I'll help you where I can.

What I take offence to is people who promote their business in an ambivalent fashion and then seem to think it's acceptable.

[Brad]

ALL cocoa butter is yellowish and full of bits when it's first pressed. That doesn't mean it's raw. All it means is that it is not as refined. The look is irrelevant to the temperature.

Case in point: Demarera sugar is still sugar. It's just not as refined as white sugar.

Yellow and white cocoa butter is still cocoa butter but the important thing is PROCESSING TEMPERATURE, and that can't be determined by looking at the final product.

The only way you can be sure, is to have an independent third party verify that the source of your cocoa butter processes their products at a temperature below 120F. Then and ONLY then can you ethically say it's raw. Until then it's all smoke and mirrors.

Brad

[littleblue]

I wish I knew how to post a document on here, because I have at hand a copy of the process and temperatures from my suppliers and their intermediary who negotiates for me. My supplier is Ecoandino SAC in Lima, who provide our non-roasted products - I had in fact confused myself with paperwork from another supplier that we considered but who wasn't supplying the bean we wanted - I'm going to have to change the website and take out the bit about roasting, because by the looks of it they don't roast what we're using - maybe you can clarify that a bit when you look at my sheet data.

The following is quoted direct from the technical data sheet relating to the organically certified cacao products. Obviously I cannot copy their marks and stamps here, but if you'll take my word for it this is related to that certification independently verified. That is, after all, what certified means or is supposed to mean.

Ok box one: Selecting Criollo cacao beans.
Two: Washing and disinfecting (biodegradeable disinfectant)
Three: Drying drying machine at no more than 45ºC -> at this point cacao beans are selected and packed.
Four: Peeling and broken into nibs -> cacao nibs, selected and packed.

This is the point where we step in, these are the nibs we are then making one type of our chocolate with.

Five: Milling nibs to make liquor or paste (60ºC short time) (special machine)

Then the tree of processes breaks, on the left we go to cacao liquor (40-50ºC) which is packed, cooled and stored - we don't go there.

The other products we purchase are cacao powder and cacao butter, those comes from the right hand branch,

So, six right: Cacao Liquor

Seven right: Conditioning for extracting butter (80-85ºC short time)

Eight right: Cool hydraulic press [it strikes me this may be similar to the process used by the guys in that video you gave the link for?]

Again here it splits, we go left with our cacao butter and right with our cacao powder as follows...

Left nine: liquid cacao butter (30-35ºC)
Left ten: packing
Left eleven: cooled (12-15ºC)
Left twelve: storage.

That's the butter. The powder is as follows

right nine: cacao cake (30-35ºC)
right ten: milling (room temperature) (special machine)
right eleven: cacao powder
right twelve: packing
right thirteen: storage

So that is the exact process that our nibs, which we are grinding for chocolate, our butter and our powder go through. No, they're not picked off a tree and immediately sweetened and sold, but compared to the systems used by major manufacturers we've managed to source a cacao which is a hell of a lot closer to it. I don't know what you'd call this, probably not raw, but it seems to me that these guys are doing far more in terms of offering a raw product than an awful lot of other people. What do you think?