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Post by jamescary on Feb 21, 2008 18:17:21 GMT -5
A couple of questions:
Is it possible to get whole cacao pods? I read once that it is not done because cacao pods are 'fragile' and rot quickly.
Is it possible to ferment cacao beans with another sugar besides the flesh of the cacao pod? If so, is it possible to get unfermented beans?
Also, how controlled are the strains of yeast used? Are there well known varieties of yeast?
Thanks!
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Post by seneca on Feb 22, 2008 0:34:28 GMT -5
The short answer to the first part is no, unless you happen to live in a cacao-growing region :-) Pods aren't actually all that fragile, but there are quite a few pest and basic economic issues that prevent them from being imported fresh into the US or Europe.
Unfermented beans are only available (as far as I know) in dried form, so no fermenting will be happening there.
I'm not aware of anyone in the industry innoculating batches with anything other than local yeast cultivars (and even this is hardly ever part of anyone's process). IMO, the best book on the subject is Cacao Fermentation by Arthur Knapp. It's out of print, but you can find copies using online tools like Alibris, and if you're interested in the subject, it's a must-read.
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Post by jamescary on Feb 22, 2008 0:52:27 GMT -5
Is the pest issue limited to importing from certain countries (or all countries)? And importing to certain states for the case of importing into the US? What kind of economic issues? Would it cause a significant rise in shipping cost?
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Post by seneca on Feb 22, 2008 15:24:29 GMT -5
The pest issue varies by area of origin, but include issues like fruit fly, fungal diseases, cocoa pod borer, etc. Economically, there simply isn't any application for the fresh fruit at the moment, so without an existing marketplace (i.e. demand), there's no one in the cacao growing world interested in focusing on delivering the fresh fruit. Also, the time from pick to pod cracking needs to be kept short--cacao will not continue to ripen once the umbilicus to the tree is cut--so even if you did want to ship it before fermentation, you'd have to move it fast, with correspondingly high transport costs.
I should certainly point out here that these are just observations from parts of the marketplace I've seen or been involved with--things are certainly changing in the world of cacao. However, personally I believe that the pick, fermentation and drying of cacao are best left on site where the crop is grown, for any number of reasons...
Better to move chocolate making closer to its crop than the other way around, IMO :-)
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Post by jamescary on Feb 22, 2008 20:49:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. I agree that as a long term solution chocolate making should be brought closer to the crop; however, due to political reasons it seems that may be much more risky/costly. For the short term, I'd really be interested to find out what it would take to get some raw (, raw ) cacao.
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Post by seneca on Feb 22, 2008 22:28:49 GMT -5
Best of luck! I'm afraid I don't have many good ideas on that topic...
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Post by cacaufarmer on Mar 11, 2008 19:03:55 GMT -5
Cocoa pods or cacau as I know it, is normally cut from the tree and opened within 48-72hrs. It is transported to fermentation boxes where it remains for 6-7 days, being mixed several times to maintain uniform temperatures and fermentation. Fermented cacau is then placed in wooden floored areas to be sun dried to 6-8% humidity. Fermentation controls the flavor and drying prevents mold and fungus from forming during storage. Approx 200 pods are required to provide 15kg of 8% dried cacau. I am an American cacau farmer living in the state of Bahia in Brasil and will be happy to answer questions regards production and processing.
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Post by jamescary on Mar 11, 2008 19:58:33 GMT -5
Hi welcome cacaufarmer! Thanks for the info! You said that the pods are opened within 48-72 hours. Is there any reason to delay opening them right after cutting them from the tree? If one were to skip the fermentation and dry the unfermented bean, would it be possible to rehydrate it later and ferment it? This one sounds bizarre just typing it. But, I would like to try my hand at fermenting the bean, also.
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Post by seneca on Mar 12, 2008 11:37:46 GMT -5
I've seen cases in which pods were held a day or two before cracking, as well as cases where pods are cracked almost immediately after pick. I'm not aware of a chemical or hedonic difference between these patterns.
Like wine, you've got a two-stage fermentation in cacao: first yeast, then bacteria--and you need proper temperature, nutrition and humidity conditions at the right time for both those processes to get started and finished properly. Although I haven't tried it, my strong inclination is that if you rehydrated a batch of dried unfermented seeds you would no longer have the right mix of sugars and pectin to feed your yeast, and it would be difficult to start a genuine ferment. Just a guess...
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Post by jamescary on Mar 12, 2008 15:07:03 GMT -5
That's what I'd think, too. But I just happened across this line from The New Taste of Chocolate: In some producing countries like Malaysia, it has been found that the flavor of cacao can be improved and high acidity and astringency reduced by the simple post-harvest technique of leaving the pods unopened for several days.
What happens to the pod when it is left for even longer periods? Will the seeds germinate and grow causing the pulp to change (I remember that once germinated the beans become really bitter) or does it dry out?
I'm with you on that the resulting beans and processed chocolate will probably be different. But, I'm wondering how different. Barley is dried to store before it's malted and made to beer. Wines are made with raisins.
Which actually makes me wonder, can cacao fruit be dehydrated?
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Post by seneca on Mar 12, 2008 17:05:57 GMT -5
It probably can be dehydrated, but I'm not sure what the results would be like.
I really recommend picking up a copy of Cacao Fermentation...that book goes into quite a bit of detail on different regional post-harvest strategies, including Latin America, southeast Asia and Africa. Much more in depth than anything I've seen elsewhere, and it might give you some additional ideas.
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Post by cacaufarmer on Mar 12, 2008 18:43:59 GMT -5
The basic reason for delay in opening is the logistics of harvesting over large areas then transporting the pods to a central location for bean removal. The work is done on very rugged terrain and transport is by manpower to the site of extraction. The extracted beans are then transported to the fermentation building by use of mules and baskets woven from vines. In areas that are accesable, tractor and trailer are used. Fermentation requires the residual liquid that surrounds beans when in the pod. The fermentation boxes are built with drain holes that allow the surplus liquid (known here as "cacau honey") to drain during fermentation. Each box is +- 60"H X 72"L X 60"W which is a capacity for +- 1000kg (when dry). The fermentation process requires the beans to be manually turned with wooden shovels each 36-48hrs. The fermentation box, after filling, remains covered with burlap to maintain the fermentation temperature semi-constant. When placed in the fermentation box, cacau beans are light colored internally and continue to darken as the process plays out. Experienced fermentation managers can determine the level of fermentation by slicing through a bean and analyzing its degree of violet color. I seriously doubt you could interrupt the process, dehydrate and reinstate the cycle later.
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Post by jamescary on Mar 13, 2008 15:59:08 GMT -5
Thanks, cacaufarmer! Those are some large containers! What do you do with your cacao? Do you also process it or do you sell it? For those interested, I have found a supplier of cacao pods: www.orkos.com/home_EN.phpThe site says they deliver to European countries. I've contacted them to see if they deliver to the States. Also, I've found a couple places which sell cacao plants and raw seeds, but they were pretty expensive -- ~$1 per seed. Also, I ran across a paper, www.biochemj.org/bj/051/0516/0510516.pdf, which outlined an experiment of trying to recreate some of the processes of fermentation in a lab setting. There was an interesting conclusion in there: It is possible to obtain conversion of the cyanidin compounds with sun-dried, unfermented, powdered beans, in buffers under anaerobic conditions.
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Post by chocochemistjrl on Mar 13, 2008 19:07:20 GMT -5
hey there! i've been trying to find out the same info you have for a long time with hardly any luck. if that one website that you posted sells them to the states, let me know! that'd be pretty cool to have a cacao pod along with the rest of my fruits at home!
Chocochemist J.R.L
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Post by cacaufarmer on Mar 13, 2008 19:33:12 GMT -5
I am not trying to pour water on the campfire but you need to be extremely cautious with the attempt to procure whole cacau pods. In the first instance, there are some serious penalties for breaching the US Department of Ag sanitation barriers. I have absolutely no doubt that whole pods of cacau, unless treated will not make legal entry. In the second instance, you need to stipulate the type of seed or tree you are purchasing as all cacau plants require cross pollination and you will need a minimum of two compatible trees. There exist plants that are "auto compatible" but are very specific and will be very doubtful that your vendor will know. Once you have successfully germinated and rooted the trees, you will need to care for them for 5-7 years before it bears fruit. It will require that you manually pollinate as bees do not do the job...a small mosquito like fly plays this role and will likely not be available in your garden. Good luck with the project but your best bet to have a look at cacau in it's natural form is to head down to Tabasco state in Mexico, Hawaii or Central America. We welcome visitors into the beautiful state of Bahia in Brasil where still have Atlantic Rain Forests, Cacau, and one of the most bio-diverse regions of the world.
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