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Post by vossler on Mar 27, 2013 22:57:28 GMT -5
Hi Alochemy
This is Vossler, I got 5kg cocoa bean from Malaysia, I try to did some experiment to make chocolate
We have five steps, the cocoa bean had already been fermented back in Malaysia,
The Five steps are
1.Bean_Roaster : machine steup 145℃ , the central of bean reached to 130℃, we took it out form roaster, roasting time took 100 minutes.
2.Bean_Winnower ---->get cocoa nibs 3.Cocoa Nib Grinder -----> get chocolate mass 4.Refining and Conching ----> whole process take 6-8 hours total in this step, first we add Cocoa mass only, 3hours later add cocoa buter and sugar and Lecithin until to the end. Blower temp:42℃.Refining and Conching temp : 52℃
Beofore take out from conching machine, we check the Particle size between 15-20 micro meter
5. In Tempering Machine, we reheat to 52℃ and start cooling to 30.5℃ than re-heat to 32℃ than make molding.
The issue is I found out the cholocate taste acidity and bitter ( astringent taste), how could I make some changes to balance the acidity and astringent.
Some background info 50% Cocoa bean 15% coca buter 35% sugar Lecithin 0.5% Particle size :range 15-20 micro meter
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Post by Brad on Mar 28, 2013 2:46:09 GMT -5
Hi Vossler;
Your post isn't clear. Was the time 100 minutes from raw bean to finished chocolate?
If that is so, then time is your problem. You need to refine and conche for approximately 36 hours, not minutes. It takes time to oxidize the acids still present after roasting.
Hope that helps. Brad
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Post by vossler on Mar 28, 2013 3:40:33 GMT -5
Dear Brad,
Appreciate your useful comment, I just update the whole process in detail,
The question is that this Refining and Conching device can reach to 15-21 micro meter within 8 hours, is that other way we can add to cocoa liquid (such as Potassium carbonate and Sodium carbonate) in order to balance flavor and get higher ph value?
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Post by vossler on Mar 31, 2013 21:26:30 GMT -5
The question is that if we do this way,the conching machine only take 6-8 hours to reach the 15-21 micro meter, If we let it run 24 hours to 36 hours, the particle size will reach under 10 micro-meter, we concern that for thickness of chocolate will make Agitator hard to operate.
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Post by jhoff on Apr 1, 2013 23:42:49 GMT -5
Try it? I think from the comments I've read here, you want to refine / conch until it tastes right / good. Can't hurt to try it and see - worst case is you throw some out.
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Post by vossler on Apr 2, 2013 0:59:28 GMT -5
Hi jhoff,
Thanks for comments, It is on the way refine/conch, I shall not to interrupt or try to idle chocolate within 36 hours running time?
from my understanding, this process is trying to remove "Acetic acid" it's Formula is CH3COOH
shall I add Potassium carbonate or sodium carbonate to balance if 36 hours later didn't works
Is that gonna helps? NaHCO3 + CH3COOH -> Na(+)CH3COO(-) +H2O + CO2.
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Post by jhoff on Apr 2, 2013 1:02:51 GMT -5
It's my understanding you can stop and start it as much as you like - most of the time I just let it run. I've never let it run for much more than 24 hours tho. Let it run until it tastes right to you. I have no idea if you can add potassium carbonate or baking soda but I think the answer is no. I certainly haven't had to. I'm also not sure what you are trying to eliminate is strictly acetic acid. Please just try letting the refine run until it tastes right then if that doesn't work, worry about what to do next
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Post by cheebs on Apr 2, 2013 8:30:04 GMT -5
I think there is a very important unasked question here: what refiner/conche are you using? Processing times vary greatly from one type of machine to another.
Acidity in chocolate can be handled in two ways: with the roast and with conche time.
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Post by vossler on Apr 2, 2013 15:39:27 GMT -5
cheebs, you are right
I paid attention on roasting until the baked brownie flavor coming out, beans smell significantly reduced. Does anybody roasting more than 2 hours or I shall ask does it helps to reduce the sour running more than 100 minutes.
It is approaching 18 hours on refine/conch, It taste a little bit less sour, I will keep you updated.
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Post by jhoff on Apr 2, 2013 19:59:24 GMT -5
Did I understand correctly that you roasted for 2 hours? I roast for 30 mins - 10 mins at 325-350F, 10 mins at 300-325F then 10 mins in the oven w/ it turned off (so around 300F). I'll let you do the C->F conversions but maybe you over roasted? Or maybe you've actually under roasted because unless I calculated wrong, 145C=293F and 130C=266F - not really hot enough? Did you hear beans cracking?
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Post by vossler on Apr 3, 2013 11:41:55 GMT -5
Thaat is interesting part on roasting, I tried to list more specific.
Machine setup temperature : 325F (it took almost 90 minutes to reach 275F Cocoa bean actual temp : 275F (we maintain cocoa bean in 275F around 30 minutes ) total approximately 2 hours Machine setp temp is just a ideal value, 275F is the temperature we would like it to roasting on this value. When we smell baked brownie with less sour flavor thqn we took beans out.
Bean capacity: 2kg automatic turn the beans Anything can improve in roasting stage?
Jhoff, do you mean put cocoa bean inside the oven when the temperature reach to 275F? Currently we start from 25C (indoor temperature )
By the way, does high temp (65C~75C) in refine/conching stage gonna help remove the Acetic acid flavor?
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Post by jhoff on Apr 3, 2013 11:59:07 GMT -5
Yes, I heat my oven to 325 (or 350) before I put the beans in it. And I really only have experience doing what I do and doing it in a standard home convection oven. And I've only made 5-6 batches of chocolate which have all turned out well in my opinion I got the roasting instructions from the bean descriptions for example here: shop.chocolatealchemy.com/products/venezuelan-mantuano-2012
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Post by anish on Apr 8, 2013 11:19:38 GMT -5
Hi Vossler, your problem of sour taste is not because of roasting or conching procedure. Actual problem is with beans. Malasiyan beans are highly acidic, so you cant make good chocolate out of it, unless you alkalise it. Roasting and conching minimise acidity to a minimum level only. Alkalzing is a different procedure, that demands more machines. So my advise is to dont go for malasiyan or any asian beans that are usualy acidic, unless ther is machines and know how, how to alkalize .
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Post by Sebastian on Apr 8, 2013 17:00:57 GMT -5
Anish - while asian beans certainly can be quite sour, i couldn't disagree more with the statement that good chocolate can't be made. It's a bit like generalizing that red cars are terrible because they break down - sure there are red cars that break down, but there are many other red cars that run just fine. ANY cocoa bean - if you prepare it improperly - can be quite sour. Having spent a great deal of time in Asia, i can quite confidentially tell you that it is more than possible to make fantastic chocolate using Asian beans.
However, it's also my experience that very, very few people konw how to properly prepare beans (alternatively, the definition of 'properly' varies from person to person - just because someone's making something that i don't like doesn't mean it's improper...). That lack of knowledge isn't limited only to asian bean producers - there are very few folks who really understand how fermentation and drying can be manipulated to direct flavor.
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Post by anish on Apr 8, 2013 22:22:21 GMT -5
Sebastian - you are right as you always are. I advised vossler not to deal with asian beans because, 95 percent beans available in the market here are acidic. It is difficult to handile acidic beans. Vosler seems to be a new guy and i dont want he to be in a difficult road, even before he starts. He is already confused about roasting, conching, refining....etc. He can make great chocolate out of asian beans after he expertise in all the other procedures and not now. I am from india , making chocolate out of Indian cocoa beans. We are located in a place called KERELA in the south indian hills of Western Ghat. Here 99 percent of beans available are acidic. And that was the only beans available for me. It was a major stubling block. Nobody for guidance, I t took 10 years to make my first succesful batch of chocolate. I dont want vossler to be in such a situation. Now what i am doing is that collecting cocoa pods from farmers, fermenting and drying myself to make sure that, it is properly processed. Actualy what is important is that, not the cocoa tree or not the region, but the hands who handle it. I just repeated sebastion. But still my advise for vossler is to keep away from asian beans if it is possible and take a smooth start.
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