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Post by Alan on Feb 5, 2006 8:32:24 GMT -5
Hello all,
Does any one know about growing cocoa in a small green house building? This interests me as it might be possible to acquire some varieties that are not otherwise available.
Does anyone know:
a) if growing such plants like this is possible? b) if it is easy or difficult? c) how to prepare the soil? d) how many pounds of beans each pod has? e) how many pods each tree has? f) if there is a book that covers all of these issues?
Thank you for any and all comments.
Sincerely,
Alan
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Post by seneca on Feb 5, 2006 13:28:24 GMT -5
You certainly can grow Theobroma in a greenhouse environment, but you're just about 0% likely to get any substantial fruiting. The pollinating insects simply aren't present outside of the equatorial zone (roughly +/- 20 degrees latitude), and there's no substitute for those little midges.
As far as # of pods per tree, that's very much dependent on varietal, locale, etc... However, as a global average (big generalization), you could expect a Theobroma Cacao tree to produce about half a kilo of dried seed per tree per year.
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Post by Alan on Feb 5, 2006 16:23:01 GMT -5
Dear Seneca, Thank you for your comments. It is a testament to my ignorance that I didn't even know that Cocoa trees needed midges to be fertilized. I do know, however, that some fruit trees can have their blossoms fertilized manually, though I don't know what the success rate is for such fertilization, but still, it makes me wonder if such manual fertilization might be possible with cocoa blossoms. Have you ever heard of such a thing being done? This is assuming that one can't buy midges and import them to the US due to agricultural laws. By the way, for those who are as ignorant about this topic as I am, I just found this interesting site about cocoa tree farms: Farming ChocolateSincerely, Alan
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Post by seneca on Feb 5, 2006 17:42:09 GMT -5
Hi Alan-
I've never heard of anyone having success with manual fertilization, but that certainly doesn't rule it out. However, Cacao flowers are very very small, and I think it would be a difficult job at best, even if technically possible.
I checked the site you referenced, and if you ask me there's some mixed good and not-so-good content there as far as accuracy. If you're interested in the specifically agronomic aspects of Cacao as a plant, I really recommend the book The Chocolate Tree, by Alan Young, who did some seminal research on Cacao in Costa Rica. He spends quite a bit of time discussing pollination specifically, which might help you out...
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Post by seneca on Feb 5, 2006 17:43:15 GMT -5
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Post by Alan on Feb 5, 2006 17:54:54 GMT -5
Dear Seneca,
Thank you for the further tips. I'll be picking the book up at the university library tomorrow. Thanks for your comments on that website as well; I won't put too much stock in what it says.
Sincerely,
Alan
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Post by Alan on Feb 5, 2006 22:05:48 GMT -5
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Post by Sebastian on Feb 6, 2006 6:40:42 GMT -5
I've also bought cocoa trees off of ebay, believe it or not.
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Post by Alan on Feb 6, 2006 11:43:22 GMT -5
Dear Sebastian,
I took a look at ebay and, at the moment, all they have is one vendor of "seeds." I don't think I'm interested though as, from what I've read, not only do cocoa beans lose their fertility if not planted quickly, but they must also be chosen carefully to result in the best trees. This vendor doesn't speak to any of these issues, and doesn't clarify what type of cocoa beans they are anyway.
To change the subject slightly, I did come across a photo of a cocoa tree in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in a covered garden that was fruiting.
This leads me to believe that manual pollination must be possible. Now I just need to figure out how to do it. Have you had any luck with such a thing?
I am hoping that a few books I'll be getting today, and later this week, might be helpful for this issue.
Sincerely,
Alan
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Post by Alan on Feb 6, 2006 17:44:23 GMT -5
Dear all,
After getting into The Chocolate Tree, by Alan Young, it seems that not only is it possible to manually pollinate cocoa trees, but actually they fruit more fully when pollinated manually as opposed to allowing midges to pollinate naturally. It apparently has to do with the evolution of Theobroma Cacao as a relatively conservative plant being self-infertile, etc.
Young also gives a rough idea of how to go about this manual pollination, and highlights the various components of the flower structure.
So, it seems that one of the hardest parts will be finding trees that I am happy with and building a small greenhouse. I won't be able to do this until this summer at the soonest, so we'll see what happens. At least now I have a better idea of the sunlight requirements, heat and moisture requirements, space requirements (one can feasibly keep them down to 12 feet tall if pruned properly), and the soil type that is required.
Though I've probably come to the end of my research into this until this summer, I'll let you all know what happens when I start working on things and get close to ordering some (probably 3) trees.
Sincerely,
Alan
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Post by sugaralchemy on Feb 25, 2006 21:55:43 GMT -5
Yet another fascinating topic right up my alley Growing tropical plants in a greenhouse is almost an art form. I guess so is chocolate... The tricky parts come in with conditions being inherently different in a greenhouse. Different diseases and pests are likely to attack the plants, and the airflow and natural biological and environmental control mechanisms are not in place. Sometimes, the source of the problem is only native to your area, so the plant has no natural defenses or resistance. Also, you face challenges related to light and temperature. Most plants have a preferred temperature swing from night to day. Most can do fine without it, but still, it does enhance their growth or may even impact fruiting. Other plants prefer certain levels of light duration during different times of the year. Some plants are stimulated to blossom by shortening days, or perhaps by longer days. Others are very picky about light levels. In the Pacific NW in the winter, the growth really slows down due to heavily overcast weather. And this usually makes plants more vulnerable to attack by pest, disease, etc. Still, growing tropical plants in a greenhouse is a lot of fun! Not all of these problems apply to all plants, so don't despair too much. And if you get even minor productivity off them, it can be incredibly rewarding. It also lets you see and experience things you would otherwise have to travel thousands of miles and stay for a long period to see the complete development process. If you're up for a fun and somewhat information read along this vein, I strongly suggest you check out The After-Dinner Gardening Book: www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898154502/sr=8-11/qid=1140922522/ref=sr_1_11/104-9491111-6674368?%5Fencoding=UTF8
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Post by Sebastian on Feb 28, 2006 9:52:17 GMT -5
A Patrick - you may want to consider approaching one of your local greenhouses and making them the offer of i'll buy you the trees if you house them for me. Advantages to them are that they'll have something very unique to help draw folks in w/o having to pay for it, and advantages to you are you don't have to build a greenhouse I've done this before, and I've seen it work multiple times..it doesn't hurt to sweeten the pot by offering them regular samples of the chocolate you'll make from those trees
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Post by Alan on Feb 28, 2006 10:08:46 GMT -5
A Patrick - you may want to consider approaching one of your local greenhouses and making them the offer of i'll buy you the trees if you house them for me. Advantages to them are that they'll have something very unique to help draw folks in w/o having to pay for it, and advantages to you are you don't have to build a greenhouse I've done this before, and I've seen it work multiple times..it doesn't hurt to sweeten the pot by offering them regular samples of the chocolate you'll make from those trees That's a great idea. There are some pretty nice green houses around the area to which I'll be moving, too. Alan
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Post by Alchemist on Feb 28, 2006 12:35:14 GMT -5
Not to put a damper on growing your own, but to pass on my own experience, I will say cocoa is quite difficult to grow if you are not in the tropics.
There main difficulty is their temperuture (over 60F) and humidity (over 80%) requirements.
I killed one very quickly due to the humidity problem.
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Post by Sebastian on Feb 28, 2006 12:50:48 GMT -5
na, as with any relationship, you just need to understand it's needs and meet them most decent greenhouses have sufficient temperature control and humidity control to meet the physiological requirements of the tree. I've seen full grown trees as far north as northern pennsylvania (in proper greenhouses, of course)
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