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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Sept 16, 2022 13:50:59 GMT -5
I roast coffee on a Mill City 1kg drum roaster and use Artisan to track my roasts.
I'm new to roasting cacao and would love to connect with other people in similar situations.
I've only done two roasts so far (~500g each). I've been using one of John Nanci's posts as a rough guideline, aiming to go for about 17 minutes with an EOR temp around 255F. My first roast went way too hot/fast and I finished around 290F in 13 minutes. That being said, the chocolate was delicious!
Despite trying to slow this down with batch 2, I hit 290F in about 9 minutes. Haven't finished making that into chocolate yet but tasting just the nibs it seems a bit flat, though I bet it will still taste pretty good in the end (chocolate seems way more forgiving than coffee).
Similar to coffee, I've been aiming for my charge temp to more or less match my EOR temp but it's a real challenge getting the roaster to settle as low as 250F.
Any advice and/or sharing of roast profiles would be greatly appreciated!
Dan
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Post by Ben on Sept 17, 2022 10:52:16 GMT -5
Hello! I'm roasting cacao in an electric Buckeye Coffee BC-5 roaster. I generally roast about 4kg at a time in it. I'm not familiar with coffee roasting and have only recently heard of the idea of matching the charge & EOR temps, so have never done that when roasting cacao. My charge temp is generally around 300F. My guess is that the small amounts are what's causing your problems. The rough rule of thumb is that you can roast about twice the amount of cacao than coffee in a drum roaster. So your 1kg roaster can probably do 2kg of cacao, so for 500g, you'd have to use very little power or gas. A couple random things: John Nanci suggests using the bare minimum of airflow when roasting cacao. I've found that doing this helps to slow down the roast and brings out better flavors generally. My roaster has a physical airflow valve and depending on the bean, I have it set to somewhere between 1 & 3 out of 10. It's low enough that it never registered on the airflow meter, so I disconnected it.  You'll generally want the drum to be turning slower than with coffee. This is mostly to avoid breakage, but I've found that drum speed also affects roast speed. |
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Post by Sebastian on Sept 24, 2022 6:41:42 GMT -5
While I won't give the answer (frustrating - i know!) - i am going to point you in the right direction and give you some things to think about.
Many people seem to be under the impression that time and temperature gymastics (along with a complicated combination of temperature profile changes combined with smells and sounds) are an effective way to manage roasting cocoa beans. I'm going to urge you to think through what physical changes occur during roasting processes - be it bread, cooking a turkey, or roasting seeds. Time/Temperature are the *how* of what you're doing, but they're not the *why* - and while tracking time/temperature are important from a process control standpoint - they're quite ineffective as a specification parameter (ie they're not the thing you'd measure to determine if your roast is successful or not). Airflow plays *heavily* into this equation. What's the physical attribute that you can measure that's changing during this process, so that you'll know when you're process has achieved it's goal?
Complicated time/temperature/smell/sound combinations may give the impression of control - but that's all it is. While there may be meaningful reasons to alter time and temperature once - or maybe even twice - during a roast - there's almost always no benefit to doing so. What you do and how you treat your beans *after* you roast them is just as important as the roast itself.
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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Nov 13, 2022 11:43:50 GMT -5
While I won't give the answer (frustrating - i know!) - i am going to point you in the right direction and give you some things to think about. Many people seem to be under the impression that time and temperature gymastics (along with a complicated combination of temperature profile changes combined with smells and sounds) are an effective way to manage roasting cocoa beans. I'm going to urge you to think through what physical changes occur during roasting processes - be it bread, cooking a turkey, or roasting seeds. Time/Temperature are the *how* of what you're doing, but they're not the *why* - and while tracking time/temperature are important from a process control standpoint - they're quite ineffective as a specification parameter (ie they're not the thing you'd measure to determine if your roast is successful or not). Airflow plays *heavily* into this equation. What's the physical attribute that you can measure that's changing during this process, so that you'll know when you're process has achieved it's goal? Complicated time/temperature/smell/sound combinations may give the impression of control - but that's all it is. While there may be meaningful reasons to alter time and temperature once - or maybe even twice - during a roast - there's almost always no benefit to doing so. What you do and how you treat your beans *after* you roast them is just as important as the roast itself. Go on... Ok, you won't give the answer but can you expand on what you wrote? A bit more of a nudge towards the answer? My only reference is roasting coffee and I continually decrease gas along the way to evenly roast the beans and develop the inherent flavor. I would assume the same with cacao but we know what's said about assuming. And in my limited experience, I've made some absolutely delicious chocolate roasting in a pot on my stove (when I first started). Had I done the same with coffee beans, it would have been terrible. So there does seem to be a significant difference. I just don't understand what that difference is and why there's no benefit to altering time and temp during a roast for cacao, as you suggest, whereas there's a significant difference doing it for coffee. |
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Post by mark on Nov 13, 2022 21:38:58 GMT -5
Hi Dan
I roast using multiple Behmors running in parallel plus Artisan to track the roast via a bean temperature probe. In my opinion moving to this setup has improved the quality of my chocolate significantly. As each Behmor roast is a cold start I can't comment on the charge temperature but really all the info on profile roasting is in those ATA posts from a few years ago. Happy to attempt to answer any specific questions you may have. I attended John's roasting seminar a few years ago and it was a great learning experience, highly recommended.
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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Nov 14, 2022 13:23:29 GMT -5
Thanks Mark. What are the ATA posts? Do you have direct links?
Multiple Behmors...interesting. Is that because you're roasting a large enough volume that one just isn't enough?
Comparing my roaster to yours is probably a bit apples to oranges (or dark ch. to milk ch.) but I'd be interested in seeing some of your graphs if you don't mind posting.
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Post by mark on Nov 14, 2022 21:17:03 GMT -5
Dan, by ATA I'm referring to John's Ask the Alchemist posts. He did a whole series of those a few years ago and they're super useful. Unfortunately the search feature does not always find everything in my experience, but they start around the post 200 I recall. Here's an early one: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2017/1/19/ask-the-alchemist-191 and then here's that post 200: chocolatealchemy.com/blog/2017/4/5/ask-the-alchemist-200You're right that comparing my graphs to yours is not useful but in any case my graphs look pretty similar to the graphs John shows in those posts. The key elements are those development and finishing phases. You'll want to vary those for the beans you're using and see what works best for your particular taste. Regarding your question about the multiple Behmors: I've found running a few Behmors in parallel is more cost and space effective for my current set up than purchasing a larger roaster. Of course if space and cost were no issue I'd have a nice custom colour Diedrich :-) |
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Post by Ben on Nov 16, 2022 8:38:04 GMT -5
IIRC, the profile roasting ATAs are #200-#205 or so, but there are a few others at different points that add to what he said in the originals.
Assuming you're both in drum roasters, comparing the graphs can definitely be helpful. The whole argument for profile-based roasting is that if the beans go through the same roast curve, the end result should be similar. There are other variables that aren't shown in a profile curve that affect the final flavor (airflow, drum speed, probably others), but similar curves with the same beans should result in similar roasts.
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Post by Sebastian on Nov 16, 2022 19:08:20 GMT -5
While I won't give the answer (frustrating - i know!) - i am going to point you in the right direction and give you some things to think about. Many people seem to be under the impression that time and temperature gymastics (along with a complicated combination of temperature profile changes combined with smells and sounds) are an effective way to manage roasting cocoa beans. I'm going to urge you to think through what physical changes occur during roasting processes - be it bread, cooking a turkey, or roasting seeds. Time/Temperature are the *how* of what you're doing, but they're not the *why* - and while tracking time/temperature are important from a process control standpoint - they're quite ineffective as a specification parameter (ie they're not the thing you'd measure to determine if your roast is successful or not). Airflow plays *heavily* into this equation. What's the physical attribute that you can measure that's changing during this process, so that you'll know when you're process has achieved it's goal? Complicated time/temperature/smell/sound combinations may give the impression of control - but that's all it is. While there may be meaningful reasons to alter time and temperature once - or maybe even twice - during a roast - there's almost always no benefit to doing so. What you do and how you treat your beans *after* you roast them is just as important as the roast itself. Go on... Ok, you won't give the answer but can you expand on what you wrote? A bit more of a nudge towards the answer? My only reference is roasting coffee and I continually decrease gas along the way to evenly roast the beans and develop the inherent flavor. I would assume the same with cacao but we know what's said about assuming. And in my limited experience, I've made some absolutely delicious chocolate roasting in a pot on my stove (when I first started). Had I done the same with coffee beans, it would have been terrible. So there does seem to be a significant difference. I just don't understand what that difference is and why there's no benefit to altering time and temp during a roast for cacao, as you suggest, whereas there's a significant difference doing it for coffee. Flavor forms in one of three ways: - Something is added - Something is removed - Something is formed (either by adding two things together to create a 3rd, or via breaking things apart) When you heat food up - two of these things are occurring. Of the two mechanisms of flavor formation that are in play - for the vast, vast majority of people - only one of them is measurable. Time / temp are *process* conditions - they exist only to get you the end result - but they in and of themselves are not the end result. While you can measure both temp and time - they won't tell you when your end state has been achieved. What's the thing you can measure in your product after it's been heated (roasted, baked, cooked, whatever) that you can measure? Answer this and you'll have a better understanding of roast control than almost everyone. It's not a trick question, nor is it a complicated chemical thing.. |
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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Dec 1, 2022 11:04:10 GMT -5
> What's the thing you can measure in your product after it's been heated (roasted, baked, cooked, whatever) that you can measure? The only thing I can think of is temperature of the product and/or the actual quality through taste and texture. |
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Post by Sebastian on Dec 2, 2022 16:00:11 GMT -5
Temperature affects the change, but is not in and of itself the change. If you over toast (burn) a piece of bread in the toaster - what is the thing that the heat (the temperature) removes, resulting in the burning?
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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Dec 2, 2022 21:05:01 GMT -5
You're assuming I got a passing grade in science.  I understand that temperature is not the change but that is something that's measurable, isn't it? But I guess that wasn't your point. The heat breaks down/removes the cellular structure of the bread? But you did ask what is measurable. Is that measurable? Or am I off the mark? |
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Post by Sebastian on Dec 4, 2022 7:30:33 GMT -5
It's not too sciency - i promise  (but, at the end of the day - it DOES all boil down to science eventually). Lets look at a different example. After you wash your clothes - i imagine you put them into a machine that gets hot and spins them (sorta like a drum roaster?). Why do you do that? |
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Post by Fat Rabbit Coffee on Dec 5, 2022 17:02:30 GMT -5
Actually, my wife does that (bless her) but if I think back to when I was single I'd say the heat evaporates the moisture and the spinning moves the clothes around so they all are exposed to the heat evenly (more or less).
Going back to the bread example, you're saying that adding heat removes moisture from the bread and that's what leads to toasting? A few messages back you asked what can be measured. Moisture content? Weight (removing moisture makes things lighter)?
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Post by Sebastian on Dec 7, 2022 19:30:56 GMT -5
Bingo! Moisture is *far* more important in - quite literally - every aspect of chocolate making - than most people realize. Control your moisture - and you'll be far, far more successful in controlling your product. Complicated roast profiles are almost never justified - other than than it gives the producer the illusion of control. It very rarely adds a quantifiable technical benefit - it simply makes the producer feel they've put their stamp on it, and as a result that's their 'secret sauce'. When analyzed, however, because most don't understand the role moisture plays - I find over, and over, and over, and over again that their product is wildly variable even though they insist they're process is in control - because they have a super special roast profile...
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(but, at the end of the day - it DOES all boil down to science eventually). Lets look at a different example. After you wash your clothes - i imagine you put them into a machine that gets hot and spins them (sorta like a drum roaster?). Why do you do that?