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Post by Alchemist on May 15, 2009 14:47:09 GMT -5
I have a decision to make and need your (the customer) input.
Here is the situation. I have a sample of a Tanzanian cocoa bean. The prep is a little rough. Small odd shaped beans. The taste though is really nice. Smooth, notes of vanilla and spice. Overall, a bean that I would like to carry. Except - while doing my cut test and roasting, I noticed a few weby beans. Very few really, but there. 5 to be exact, in 500 g.
For those that don't know, 'webs' are cocoons from cocoa moths. That means that at some time, there were insects in these beans. Usually when I find that, I won't accept those beans. Just as a matter of principle. But also, large portions of the beans are usually compromised. That is not the case here. The beans are sound, and there are no active signs of insects (the are organic and cold stored).
So, I need your input. Should Chocolate Alchemy gets these in and offer them? I don't want or need an out cry of "there are BUGS" in my beans. Experience indicates they (the webs and their contents) would roast and winnow away and not be in the chocolate. But that really isn't the point.
Does this, as described give people pause or is 1 bean/100 g ok and worthy of Chocolate Alchemy given the great flavor of the bean?
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Post by rewalston on May 16, 2009 2:18:58 GMT -5
Personally I think 1% is fine. After all god only knows what percentage of "stuff" is in commercial products.
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Post by Sebastian on May 16, 2009 5:13:11 GMT -5
it's almost impossible to remove bugs from cocoa beans - so much so that they're part of the starndard of identity for chocolate - there's a limit on how many 'insect fragments' can be present in chocolate sounds disgusting, i know. but it's much, much lower for chocoalte than it is for, say, ketchup. you don't even want to know.
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Post by benvt on May 16, 2009 11:36:08 GMT -5
1% doesn't sound too bad. We pull more than 1% of non-bean parts (stems, leaves, etc.) from the Ivory Coast beans. If the rest of the batch is nice and you're left with the same amount as other beans in the end, I'd use them. Although if there was another offering with as good flavor without the webs, Id buy them instead.
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Post by Alchemist on May 16, 2009 13:26:15 GMT -5
Very true both of you. Routinely I see specs that list insects simply <5% and that is considered good. The rub is what people are used to.
Part of that is my fault. In general (maybe in specific) I don't like to carry just average grade beans. I want better. So in many ways 'normal' is insect free here.
I think it IS possible to change the procedures and get beans that are completely clean. Heck, up to this point, that is all I have carried. I mean, you would never expect insects in other nut crops you buy. It's a matter of acceptable, and currently, for the lions share of sales (containers at a time, not the bags and lots I buy) 4-5 % is 'acceptable'.
I have no intention to make this an 'acceptable' practice. But it is a good bean that I think deserves a good showing.
Overall, here on the survey, and via a few emails I have received, everyone seems to indicate I should go with this. I am not decided yet, but am now leaning that way.
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Post by princessvaliant on May 16, 2009 19:06:08 GMT -5
John - I'd be fine with a few critters in the beans. Roasting takes care of a variety of "strange bits" as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Arrow on May 18, 2009 10:59:52 GMT -5
Flavor wins out always! I don't eat unroasted beans, because I think it could have had some kind of critter on it (from birds to bugs). So roasting away a little bit of web wouldn't bother me.
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Post by garth on May 18, 2009 21:01:19 GMT -5
No problem here. It's organic webs right? Just put it in the description. So you loose a few beans and weby beans don't weigh much and you always error to the high side on the weight which is very generous.
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Post by kellymon on May 19, 2009 17:31:15 GMT -5
Well, it looks like I'm taking a different view.... not the first time I guess While I personally understand and could deal with the issue, I think it would be bad business unless you are willing to re-sort and clean the beans, removing the contaminates. Also, are the webies dead? You could be importing agricultural pest. Might be customs issues as well. I work in the food industry, and while I'm sure there are minor problems with what we do, we never knowingly do it. Just my 2 cents robert
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Post by garth on May 19, 2009 20:16:40 GMT -5
Do the bugs get in during drying? seems they couldn't get in when they are in the pod and not during fermentation. So, I guess I would probably not buy them for the extra work. I don't like sorting . Thanks for the 2 cents.
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Post by kellymon on May 19, 2009 21:32:37 GMT -5
Hi Garth, maybe you misunderstood my point. I wasn't referring to you doing the sorting, but to John. In addidtion, I am making a few assumptions: 1. That the webys are some sort of cocoon , probably moth, created post fermentation and drying. This would indicate an infestation in storage prior to shipment. I may be totally wrong in that assumption and welcome any correction. 2. That the beans had not received treatment prior to shipping to the USA such as methyl bromide fumigation or heat sufficient to kill pests. The mention of organic indicates this. John, I'm really not trying to be negative here, and I geatly appreciate the fact that you were willing to bring this question up. Maybe we should all take the opportunity to learn a bit more about the cacao and the various life forms it supports, and at what stages. For what it is worth, here is some info that a quick google search showed: www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th7f.htmpeace, robert
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Post by Alchemist on May 19, 2009 22:53:07 GMT -5
Robert, no negativity noted. It's why I asked and the input I asked for.
To answer and address some items.
@garth, yes they are organic. In some ways, that is the 'problem'. No pesticides, so very little ways to keep the moths clear.
These are organic and cold stored in an organic facility, so contamination (I don't like the harshness of that term, but it is what it is) most likely occurred in origin. Being in cold storage, nothing at all is alive here.
Actually, I don't really mention or advertise the fact, but all of my beans are constantly organically fumigated to make sure there is never any on site contamination. What I mean in this case by fumigated is I blanket all the beans with CO2. Suffocation.
Considering the percentage is so low (1% is very low) I would not be able to sort. Way too many chances to miss something. That is not to say I would not remove something if I saw it, but I would not be taking the active time to do it.
And to each his own, Garth, I personally would not even recommend you sorting them either. Just roast, crack and winnow as normal and I would suspect that the majority of contaminants (web and dried larvae (that produced the web to be brutally frank) are going to be light and just blow away.
Finally, most likely moths got in during origin storage. It only takes a few and they are everywhere.
I really hope people don't mind the honest conversation. I don't like to top spin information. I just like to tell it like it is and let people make informed decisions.
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Post by kellymon on May 23, 2009 16:41:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the additional info John. Actually, I like knowing that you are set up for a CO2 blanket.
Heck, I was a gardening organic before it was cool......
And I'm darn curious to experience what it is that you like so much about this bean, so I would have to say "yes" if you carry them I would buy some. robert
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Post by garth on May 24, 2009 9:08:29 GMT -5
There is some good info on the ICCO about the cocoa pod borer. Now I have a question. It said the CPB attacks the pod. The beans go through fermentation which can reach temps enough to kill them right? I'm just wondering how they would get into stored beans. It dosn't say they attack fermented beans.
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Post by Brad on May 25, 2009 3:24:47 GMT -5
Howdy All;
I've been following this thread for a few days now, and after reading Sebastian's post, along with others, I'm still undecided. I know that once the beans have been roasted, cracked and winnowed, a lot of the "icky" stuff has either been blown away, or the particle sizes are so small that it's more or less undetectable. After all, it's just going to be dumped into a refiner and ground down even tinier right?
I'm sure there are tiny critters in the several tons of beans I currently have in my shop. However I haven't yet seen any, so "out of sight" = "no creepy shivers down my back".
For me, I guess if I had the choice between buying clean beans, or weby beans, and the final product quality was similar between the two, I'd never buy weby beans.
...but that's just me not liking bugs of any type.
Brad.
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