Will
Neophyte
Posts: 7
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Post by Will on May 31, 2019 15:17:11 GMT -5
We've had a couple premier grinders for a bit and make chocolate in our home to sell at the local farmers market. We're looking to move production to a separate location to be able to have it inspected.
My question is what the general consensus/people's experiences with running the chocolate refiners (melangers) overnight when not on site.
I wouldn't think chocolate makers like Dandelion etc. who still use the stone melangers are shutting them down everynight or that they have people there all night. Are inspectors ok with the idea of machinery running overnight?
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Post by Brad on May 31, 2019 15:54:06 GMT -5
Hi Will.
I'm not sure if the small OR large grinders are CE/UL approved. When I was playing with them a few years ago they were not.
IF the machines don't have a CE/UL plate or insignia with a registration number on them, they are technically not legal to be sold in the USA, and certainly not legal to be used in a commercial food capacity of any kind.
That being said, I'm guessing that most aren't and just because people are using them doesn't mean it's ok. What it does do however is open you up to HUGE liability. When the machine breaks down (and they all do at some point - usually because a belt breaks), and if it causes a fire or damage and the fire is traced back to the machine your insurance company will immediately void your policy because you're not using equipment that's certified to be safe.
When I was running my Santha at the very start of my chocolate journey I ran it in the middle of my cement basement floor, on the floor, and attached to a GFI breaker, that if there was any kind of surge or fire it would trip the breaker and simply create a black spot in the middle of my basement floor.
When I started researching the start of my business, I was unable to get the "melangeurs" certified, so I fortunately turned to another source for grinding cocoa and chocolate.
I don't know of any fires that have happened relating to this machines, but I can tell you without hesitation that almost everyone has had to take their machines apart at some point to repair a failure, and I have personally had a motor light up.
You decide if the risk is worth it.
Brad Churchill CEO Choklat Inc.
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Post by bmikiten on Jun 1, 2019 9:08:57 GMT -5
Will -
I'll offer a less dire view of this. As an engineer, I've looked at this as well with concerns about having the machines simply fail and stop ruining a batch of chocolate. I've installed video cameras and small post-it notes on each of my larger cocoa town machine drums as well as on the small machines so that I can see if they are running. Any decent over-current device (circuit breaker) can be installed at the rated stall current of the device and in most cases, it would avoid the issues that Brad is bringing up. If you hook up a 2A motor (stall current) to a 20A circuit, you could certainly have a condition where it fails and causes a fire. Using a 2A inline breaker would alleviate this issue in most cases. On the same note, most equipment failures are related to poor maintenance so keep everything clean, belts/chains (if you have them on your equipment) lubricated and be aware of noises and other issues. Of course, I'm assuming you have a fire and smoke detection system in place as well.
Finally, I've been through 4 FDA and local food inspections with both Cocoatown and other smaller equipment as well as rotary conches running and have never been questioned about anything having to do with nameplates, UL/CE labels. Most of that has to do with the ability to sell the product in the respective countries as Brad noted. Most inspectors care about storage, consumer labeling, safety, etc.
Brian
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Post by mark on Jun 3, 2019 21:34:41 GMT -5
Will, we also run our melangeurs 24 x 7. Like in Brian's case, our food inspectors are not really interested in the certification of the machinery, they care about food safety. However, Brad is correct in pointing out that if you do end up having an issue, your insurance company will definitely research what the equipment manufacturer recommends. In my case, the manufacturer does not recommend running the melangeur unattended, so I'm sure the insurance company would not pay out any claim.
Like Brian, I've assessed the risk and decided that it is minimal based on the measures in place (circuit breakers, smoke detectors).
Note I do recall seeing a guy in Europe losing his entire shop to a fire caused by a small melangeur, so it can happen.
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Post by Brad on Jun 4, 2019 1:49:48 GMT -5
bmikiten;
You can install all the cameras and circuit breakers you want, but at the end of the day, the melangeurs are NOT designed to make chocolate, nor are they certified for safe use in a food production environment. The fact that some people have ducked under the wire of regulatory compliance is no excuse for doing things illegally.
The bottom line here is this: 1. One fire destroys your business or kills someone because you were using unsafe equipment, you're out of business and on the hook for it. 2. One stickler for the rules comes and inspects your business and doesn't find any NSA or CE/UL stickers on your melangeurs, they will ABSOLUTELY shut you down until they can be certified as safe, and there is no way on God's green earth that those machines will be certifiable at ANY reasonable cost. What does this mean? You're out of business.
Oh... and all it would take is a call by a competitor of yours to a local inspector to cause you this grief.
Do you REALLY want to build a business around a dangerous and shaky foundation like this? Simply put, that would be truly stupid.
But then again, there are some truly stupid people out there. I swear sometimes that 80% of the population is simply put on the face of the earth as entertainment.
...and don't think it can't happen to you! Making chocolate is a novel thing. Inspectors LOVE checking out new facilities!!! I know because my facility HAS been inspected a few times.
Brad
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Post by Ben on Jun 4, 2019 7:09:33 GMT -5
Brad: Are the universals you sell NSF or CE/UL certified? That's a nice sales point, if so.
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Post by Brad on Jun 7, 2019 23:51:59 GMT -5
Hi Ben.
Yes they are. I have them certified and tagged by a CSA certified inspector.
Cheers Brad
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Post by bmikiten on Jun 8, 2019 23:32:09 GMT -5
bmikiten; You can install all the cameras and circuit breakers you want, but at the end of the day, the melangeurs are NOT designed to make chocolate, nor are they certified for safe use in a food production environment. The fact that some people have ducked under the wire of regulatory compliance is no excuse for doing things illegally. The bottom line here is this: 1. One fire destroys your business or kills someone because you were using unsafe equipment, you're out of business and on the hook for it. 2. One stickler for the rules comes and inspects your business and doesn't find any NSA or CE/UL stickers on your melangeurs, they will ABSOLUTELY shut you down until they can be certified as safe, and there is no way on God's green earth that those machines will be certifiable at ANY reasonable cost. What does this mean? You're out of business. Oh... and all it would take is a call by a competitor of yours to a local inspector to cause you this grief. Do you REALLY want to build a business around a dangerous and shaky foundation like this? Simply put, that would be truly stupid. But then again, there are some truly stupid people out there. I swear sometimes that 80% of the population is simply put on the face of the earth as entertainment. ...and don't think it can't happen to you! Making chocolate is a novel thing. Inspectors LOVE checking out new facilities!!! I know because my facility HAS been inspected a few times. Brad
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Post by bmikiten on Jun 8, 2019 23:38:10 GMT -5
Brad -
Not ducking anything and I don't really appreciate the attitude. I'm an engineer and we regularly use breakers as a method to protect down-circuit products in both large scale and small scale installations. Check your NEC guides before supposing anything. Your house is an example of this type of design if that helps you understand the concepts. Selling untested equipment in the US is illegal under UL requirements so i'm not sure what you are referring to in your post. Doing so ensures a lawsuit and doesn't allow you to claim on your insurance (liability) if someone sues you. I'm all for safety but education is the best option for everyone. If there are reports of devices being used outside their design parameters then we should identify them and report them to the appropriate groups for review and recall.
Check the attitude and let's try to help everyone.
Brian
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Post by Brad on Jun 10, 2019 2:04:32 GMT -5
Brian; You're wrong. PERIOD. So check YOUR attitude. You know... I have to say I find engineers to be the most arrogant group of people around. In the US, OSHA requires an NRTL listing (UL/CE/NSA are only "types" of certifications recognized by NRTL) for ALL electrical equipment to be used in the workplace. Like I said before, all it requires is a call to a local inspector. Not only can you get shut down, but you can also be fined. So.... while you're misinforming people and telling me to check my attitude, I'm providing ACCURATE information to people and telling you to go polish your ring up a bit. Here's a link to one of MANY resources which say the same thing: regulatorydesign.com/Is%20NRTL%20Marking%20Required%20by%20Law.docHappy SAFE chocolate making people! Brad.
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Post by Thomas on Jun 10, 2019 20:10:23 GMT -5
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Post by Brad on Jun 10, 2019 21:09:24 GMT -5
Thanks Thomas!
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Post by bmikiten on Jun 17, 2019 15:37:35 GMT -5
Brian; You're wrong. PERIOD. So check YOUR attitude. You know... I have to say I find engineers to be the most arrogant group of people around. In the US, OSHA requires an NRTL listing (UL/CE/NSA are only "types" of certifications recognized by NRTL) for ALL electrical equipment to be used in the workplace. Like I said before, all it requires is a call to a local inspector. Not only can you get shut down, but you can also be fined. So.... while you're misinforming people and telling me to check my attitude, I'm providing ACCURATE information to people and telling you to go polish your ring up a bit. Here's a link to one of MANY resources which say the same thing: regulatorydesign.com/Is%20NRTL%20Marking%20Required%20by%20Law.docHappy SAFE chocolate making people! Brad. Brad - I'm done with this and was only hoping to educate a few people and provide a point of view based on almost 100 UL listings that I've acquired on products over the years. The codes can be confusing when it comes to component listings versus product listings and suggest that everyone simply be careful when operating any device whether it is an automatic coffee pot that starts in the morning or a melanger. I'm not here to sell or promote anything so I don't have a horse in the race. Brian
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boca
Neophyte
Posts: 15
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Post by boca on Oct 22, 2019 9:56:27 GMT -5
Anyone want to see the photos of the fire in my building when I left melanges running all night? I still do that but put them on a metal table in an area with a cement floor and nothing burnable in the immediate area. Very, very nearly lost the whole building.
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Post by Brad on Oct 23, 2019 0:06:49 GMT -5
You SHOULD post them!!
The photos will be a grim reminder that there are REAL risks to operating equipment that hasn't been properly tested and certified by appropriate authorities - especially equipment that was designed to run in small duty cycles, and not run 24/7 for days on end.
I have ALL of our equipment - even our industrial equipment certified by a CSA inspector here in Canada.
Yeah, it costs money, but then again you can't fix "dead".
Brad.
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