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Post by subrosa on Apr 24, 2018 13:16:24 GMT -5
However, I also want to add that the problem seems to be fixed after following Diamond suggestions. Could you share what their suggestions were in regards to chocolate getting into one axel and not the other? That is part of my issue, there is chocolate getting in that axel on the wheel that the bushing comes out of. I'm sort of thinking that the chocolate is somehow actually creating the pressure that pushes the bushing out.
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Post by Brad on Apr 24, 2018 15:27:20 GMT -5
don't expect to get warranty for breaking it Someone selling a competing product impugning the warranty of a competitor surely is in poor taste? I don't sell competing equipment. I own a chocolate company, and I started that chocolate company 13 years ago with one of the first "home melangeurs" ever made. When it comes to the knowledge of this equipment and its history I have a huge headstart on all of you here. That absolutely makes me uniquely qualified to provide my advice as I have done in MANY MANY other posts in this forum. A select few people who have had good luck with their home machines does not nullify the fact that the little counter top melangeurs are not designed to be run for two days straight. Nor does it nullify the fact that up to this date, NONE of those machines are CSA/UL approved. If they burn your house down or electrocute someone, good luck getting insurance to pay. As an FYI, as an aside from owning a very successful chocolate company, having published a book on the business of craft chocolate, and having more experience than most of the people on this site, I am also the North American dealer for COMMERCIAL machines that small business grow into. I have nothing to do with the home machines. However in the spirit of transparency, I have been working for some time on a machine that is in fact purpose built to make very small batches of chocolate (10lbs +/-). It's not ready, but when it is, I certainly won't promote it as something it isn't. I am simply stating facts, whether you want to hear them or not. Whether good or bad, or right or wrong, you are buying a lentil grinder to make chocolate, and any time you purchase equipment for an application that it's not designed to do, there will be challenges. Like me or hate me, I couldn't care less. I'm simply keeping it real. Brad
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Post by Chip on Apr 24, 2018 15:46:27 GMT -5
Someone selling a competing product impugning the warranty of a competitor surely is in poor taste? I don't sell competing equipment. I own a chocolate company, and I started that chocolate company 13 years ago with one of the first "home melangeurs" ever made. When it comes to the knowledge of this equipment and its history I have a huge headstart on all of you here. That absolutely makes me uniquely qualified to provide my advice as I have done in MANY MANY other posts in this forum. A select few people who have had good luck with their home machines does not nullify the fact that the little counter top melangeurs are not designed to be run for two days straight. Nor does it nullify the fact that up to this date, NONE of those machines are CSA/UL approved. If they burn your house down or electrocute someone, good luck getting insurance to pay. As an FYI, as an aside from owning a very successful chocolate company, having published a book on the business of craft chocolate, and having more experience than most of the people on this site, I am also the North American dealer for COMMERCIAL machines that small business grow into. I have nothing to do with the home machines. However in the spirit of transparency, I have been working for some time on a machine that is in fact purpose built to make very small batches of chocolate (10lbs +/-). It's not ready, but when it is, I certainly won't promote it as something it isn't. I am simply stating facts, whether you want to hear them or not. Whether good or bad, or right or wrong, you are buying a lentil grinder to make chocolate, and any time you purchase equipment for an application that it's not designed to do, there will be challenges. Like me or hate me, I could care less. I'm simply keeping it real. Brad I quite agree with Brad that he is in fact a professional and, IMHO, was not impugning a competitor. I also agree he has been more than helpful to those of us newbies who are making mistakes left and right. As I said in my previous post, the equipment Brad sells is waaayyy beyond what I need for a making very very small amounts of chocolate at home. That being said, do I want it? Absofrigginlutely. Can I afford it? No. But I still want it. Now, after reading his post, I am extremely intrigued at what he's coming up with for "us" home brewers. .
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Post by Brad on Apr 24, 2018 17:02:07 GMT -5
However, I also want to add that the problem seems to be fixed after following Diamond suggestions. Could you share what their suggestions were in regards to chocolate getting into one axel and not the other? That is part of my issue, there is chocolate getting in that axel on the wheel that the bushing comes out of. I'm sort of thinking that the chocolate is somehow actually creating the pressure that pushes the bushing out. Subrosa; There are a number of issues that can come into play and cause your challenges. First of all, cocoa nibs and sugar act as sand paper. Over time they wear down even the hardest steel and cause chocolate to leak out. I have a couple of different types of commercial refiners in our facility and all of the rear bearings are seeping chocolate due to the abrasive nature of the material being ground down. What exacerbates the issue in your case is the fact that the bushings are often plastic in the small home machines, and cocoa nibs eat them for lunch! You may also be running into challenges with respect to expansion differences of two different materials, which causes looseness in one. Plastic expands hardly at all, while stone and metal expand significantly. Simply heating up the stone or metal will cause what would have normally been a tight plastic bushing, to now be a loose bushing, and because it's under constant pressure and vibration, it simply works itself out. Hope that helps. Brad
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Post by dubmaji on Apr 24, 2018 17:26:31 GMT -5
Well, actually, my problem was about the melanger doing weird noises. They told me maybe there was some chocolate getting onto the axel. The first solution was to assure me before every run that there was none by disassembling the wheels and cleaning them. If that didn't solve the problem, untightening the top lock would help. So the noises are gone, but I have to clean the wheels after every batch in order to keep the chocolate out. It's kind of a different problem than yours. Also, I'm only running the machine for 24 hours at the moment. I think it's important to reset some expectation here. These machines are NOT designed to make chocolate, regardless of how they are promoted. They are light-use seed mills, originating in India to grind chic peas, lentils and other soft seeds. The grinder is made for light duty cycles over infrequent periods of time, not to be run for 24-48 hours at time. That's why they break down all the time. You can use a soup ladel to dig a swimming pool, but don't expect to get warranty for breaking it while doing so. If you insist on using machines like this to make chocolate, then the best thing you can do is learn how to take it apart by yourself and repair it, because you will be doing it often. I promise. I'm sure there are many customers that are really happy with their table-top machines. Just like Chip. In fact, I am. Even though these weren't designed to refine chocolate for as long as we would like to, I'm able to make a nice chocolate bar with them. That's ok for me, and I'm aware I'll have to do some mechanics in the future to fix it. It's ok for me if I have to disassemble it after every use. What leaves me with a bad taste is that if I will have to disassemble it, or reglue the wheel, or fix it in some way, from the very first batch, is not that I will have to do it, but that it all sums up in a matter of luck. There is with no doubt an opportunity area in making some improvements to the troubleshooting guide. Thank you everyone for your responses.
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Post by subrosa on May 1, 2018 19:34:34 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on Indi to coordinate with Diamond about what is to be done with my case, but I still am turned off by the insistence that the Premier Chocolate Refiner, with it's upgrades over and above the standard Wet Grinder, is still just a lentil grinder. The application for this device is in fact chocolate making, and, with it's upgrades, it is in fact designed to be able to run for 48 hours or longer.
That my brand new device has an issue is certainly not something I'm happy about, and getting it resolved is also certainly taking longer than I think is reasonable, but I also think it is far from reasonable to malign the entire product line because one bushing is not behaving as intended or insinuate that only a "select few" have had luck with these machines.
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Post by Brad on May 1, 2018 23:38:55 GMT -5
I'm still waiting on Indi to coordinate with Diamond about what is to be done with my case, but I still am turned off by the insistence that the Premier Chocolate Refiner, with it's upgrades over and above the standard Wet Grinder, is still just a lentil grinder. The application for this device is in fact chocolate making, and, with it's upgrades, it is in fact designed to be able to run for 48 hours or longer. That my brand new device has an issue is certainly not something I'm happy about, and getting it resolved is also certainly taking longer than I think is reasonable, but I also think it is far from reasonable to malign the entire product line because one bushing is not behaving as intended or insinuate that only a "select few" have had luck with these machines. Subrosa; I spend time on this forum (and others) to help people make chocolate. I don't care if you're not happy or not. Here are some simple facts: 1. I have many years of experience of making chocolate on you. 2. I have been where you are, have used the table top grinders, and even have one of the original prototype Santhas that John sold me. It has been completely destroyed because of chocolate making and in fact no longer even looks like a Santha because everything has broken. 3. Granite wheel "melangeurs" don't exist in sizes larger than what spectra makes (100C) because the technology is very inefficient and doesn't consistently get particle size fine enough. Nobody who creates any volume of chocolate uses them for this (and more) reasons. 4. Call John personally and ask him what the original design of the machines was for, then ask him what significant modifications were made to the machines (other than vent holes in the cases for the motors) to permit continual use. 5. The machine is not CSA/UL/CE approved and is technically illegal to be sold commercially in the US. 6. I have spoken now with MANY artisan chocolate makers who have been using the table top grinders to make chocolate for a cottage business, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM have several machines of which only about half are actually operational. The other half have been cannibalized to keep the "good" half working. They are tired of continually repairing them, replacing belts and bushings and other numerous failed parts, and are finally making a decision to buy a purpose built machine. In fact I sold a machine today to one, and provided quotes to 3 others. Lastly: Just because it's the granite wheel grinder is the only solution available today, doesn't mean it's the right solution. It is only one person's opinion of how chocolate should be made and in many respects was founded out of learning how Scharfenberger made chocolate back in the 90's with a refurbished turn of the century large melangeur (which they quickly ditched and used for cosmetic purposes in their factory) after realizing how inefficient it was too. So... Be unhappy. At least you're informed. Brad.
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Post by Chip on May 2, 2018 9:14:11 GMT -5
I think Brad makes some cogent points. To be honest, I think the stone melange is truly an entry level machine, a way for someone to explore the art of making chocolate at home. I rate this melange in the category of ACMC tempering machine or the small chocovision tempering machine. Also buying most of the ingredients instead of roasting, cracking, winnowing, grinding, melange/conche, tempering, pouring.....and on and on. There is a BIG difference from using a heating pad and a glass bowl to using (from the looks of it) newest prototype temperer.
Have I had trouble? Lots. Has Diamond made good on it? Absolutely. The one thing I have to say about Diamond is the FANTASTIC customer service and their willingness to listen, help and RESPOND.
With that said: Brad, how much is an entry level melange from you? I think $$$$ is the big factor in buying a Premier or buying a Choklat. I think that's what it boils down to. Once I make the leap it totally makes sense to spend a little more for a lot more efficiency and lot less headaches and time spent repairing.
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Post by Brad on May 2, 2018 10:12:38 GMT -5
Hi Chip.
You would be right in deducing that the Diamond/Spectra is an entry level machine. In fact I would even go to say that it's a first generation entry level machine. Metaphorically speaking it is today where the Model T car was early in the 1900's. Tesla hasn't been invented yet.
For those making chocolate at home on an occasional basis I would have to concede that the machine is passable. However what happens is that people think they can turn that concept into a chocolate business by simply scaling to one of the larger machines, and that isn't the case (as is now being discovered by many craft chocolate makers).
"Entry Level" into commercial chocolate making is a nebulous term at best because the very term in the food industry means spending a LOT of money regardless of what you make. Case in point: At one point I was looking into a food truck to serve hot and cold chocolate drinks, icecreams, sorbets, and gelato's and an entry level truck was close to $75,000!
The "commercial" size spectras (65/100) are considered the large ones, and in the chocolate business, that would be considered entry level. Their prices are around $7000 USD per machine, and that's the largest they make, whereas the smallest machine I can sell is the JMJ40 which makes up to 80lbs of chocolate at a time. It starts at $6500 USD per machine.
What people don't really understand is the actual SCALE of what is considered as large volume in this industry, so let me help put this into perspective: Cocoa Barry (aka Barry Callebaut) has 60 factories around the world which produce chocolate and chocolate related products. SIXTY... One of their factories is here in Canada in a town called St. Hiacynthe. That single factory produces 3.5 million lbs of chocolate per DAY! That works out to approximately 1.6 BILLION lbs of chocolate per year, and that's from one factory!!
I am currently talking with a client who puts a chocolate chunk in each of their cookies. They currently use 20,000kg (41,000lbs) of chocolate chunks per year in their cookies, and they aren't a large company!
These kinds of quantities and volumes are common in the chocolate industry, so when people talk about making 100lbs per week, or even using their table top machines to make 20lbs per week to sell, that kind of volume isn't even considered "entry level".
The machines I sell are typically used in the lab of a large factory to test blends and do focus group testing. The next size up is a 1000kg machine, and they get larger from there - such as the 2200kg machine I have in my factory. It's a good starting point, and mimics the process that takes place when real production is ramped up. The reason these machines are typically expensive, is because most companies buying them have already invested millions of dollars in their factories, and have the budget to buy something that they don't want to piss around with, but also which mimics on a lab scale what goes on out on the factory floor.
The best thing I can say with respect to the stone melangeurs is that they are robust enough to accomplish rudimentary chocolate and whet a person's appetite for the chocolate business. (the home Willie Wonka) However any kind of commercial production is going to require commercial equipment and that costs money, plain and simple.
At the end of the day they aren't robust enough to last a lifetime of even home chocolate making, and that's a proven fact.
Brad
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Post by Chip on May 2, 2018 13:00:20 GMT -5
Brad, Spot on. There is a HUGE chasm between the home user and the professional. For instance, I make chocolate for my church. For Easter I made 40 pounds of chocolates. For Mother's Day, 50 pounds. For me, the Premier tilt melange was fine. But to be honest, if I was going to do 50+ pounds a week, I would not be such a happy camper.
From what I see, there is nothing for the "tweener." There is professional and then not so professional. Someone needs to come up with a $1000 to $1500 solution and make a "tweener" for the 100lbs a week/bi-weekly user.
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Post by subrosa on May 3, 2018 22:31:54 GMT -5
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Post by Chip on May 4, 2018 8:40:38 GMT -5
Subrosa, I have had WONDERFUL experience dealing with Diamond machines. I am gob-smacked that you are having such a time getting answers. Every time I had an issue it was resolved within 24 hours or less. Their direct website is http://www.melangers.com It might be worth a try to contact them directly and cut out the middle person. Explain to them the trouble?
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Post by subrosa on May 5, 2018 22:32:33 GMT -5
Indi tells me Diamond should be shipping me a replacement, maybe next time I will do just that.
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Post by Chip on May 10, 2018 12:05:47 GMT -5
Indi tells me Diamond should be shipping me a replacement, maybe next time I will do just that. subrosa, any word yet?
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Post by subrosa on May 14, 2018 23:48:55 GMT -5
I received a replacement wheel last week, and hopefully will have time to do a couple of hours with oil/sugar tomorrow and then do a batch of chocolate to ensure everything is sorted.
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