rron
Neophyte
Posts: 25
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Post by rron on Nov 11, 2016 22:18:20 GMT -5
I have been reading about the research that Kevin verstrepen has been doing with using different yeasts, or adding inoculates during the fermentation prossess. It all sounds interesting and promising. I have been wanting to try this and have looked for different inoculates that might be out in the market. But I haven't found any. Does anyone have any information on the use of inoculates and where I could possibly get some. Here is one article that talks about this. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150715130831.htmthanks, ron
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Post by Sebastian on Nov 12, 2016 8:55:22 GMT -5
they're just using commercially available strains. The individual who was working on this prior to him was a guy named Nicolas Camu. It's an interesting story, but it's more marketing than product benefit. Callebaut's a fantastic marketer, and this is to build a story around their specialty chocolate business for chefs, meant to drive an increase in the value proposition. It's a good marketing tactic, but technically it's a bit fuzzier. Unless you've got a sterile environment to work in and some way to sterilize the beans prior to inoculating them with whatever strains you want to work with, you're going to have significant competition from wild yeasts anyway. You can generate the same flavors largely by focusing on good post harvest practices (fermentation protocol and drying), and those are things that are MUCH more likely to be in your control.
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rron
Neophyte
Posts: 25
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Post by rron on Nov 15, 2016 0:31:26 GMT -5
Thank you for the feedback Sebastian. i thought it would be interesting. But now i think of it, your right, the beans would have to be sterilized. and, keep in a sterile environment to not attract wild yeasts.
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Post by ning1 on Dec 6, 2016 22:39:42 GMT -5
they're just using commercially available strains. The individual who was working on this prior to him was a guy named Nicolas Camu. It's an interesting story, but it's more marketing than product benefit. Callebaut's a fantastic marketer, and this is to build a story around their specialty chocolate business for chefs, meant to drive an increase in the value proposition. It's a good marketing tactic, but technically it's a bit fuzzier. Unless you've got a sterile environment to work in and some way to sterilize the beans prior to inoculating them with whatever strains you want to work with, you're going to have significant competition from wild yeasts anyway. You can generate the same flavors largely by focusing on good post harvest practices (fermentation protocol and drying), and those are things that are MUCH more likely to be in your control. A farm that supplies Barry Callebaut which I visited last month was using enzymes to reduce the fermentation time. The enzyme solution that comes in bottles have BC's logo on them. The region typically ferments for 6 days but this farm does only 4. BC pays this farm rather well for their beans. I hear you that any introduction of yeast will have to compete with wild strains but in this case it seems that the addition of enzyme is side-stepping the yeast and bacteria altogether. The bottle does not specify its contents, but my guess is that the specific enzymes are chosen to favor and accelerate specific metabolic pathways, by converting sugars without the need for yeast, and perhaps also for the subsequent stages, including acidification. The farm first dilute the enzyme in water, then mix it into the wet bean pile, what happens next is that within a short period of time, the bugs and flies which were initially attracted to the pile just disappears, perhaps sensing the reduction in the levels of sugar.
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Post by Sebastian on Dec 7, 2016 6:50:11 GMT -5
One can already ferment for a shorter time s w/o using anything additional It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The enzymes they're using are pectinases meant to slough off the outer sugary coating of the beans more quickly, meaning that theres less food for the yeasts to consume, meaning less alcohol is generated to act as the intra-membrane transport system for all the micro components that are generated during fermentation. Devil's in the details here mate - while it's true that the fermentation time is less, it's because there's less food for the fermentation organisms to consume, and they die out more quickly, meaning you get a less fermented product. Again, i can get a less fermented product simply by halting the fermentation process earlier, and it costs less. Also one must consider the supply chain of such an approach - innoculation organisms and enzymes both have very specific temperature ranges they like to live in, and typically are kept cold until the point of use for shelf life reasons. Most fermentation scenarios don't have such things as controlled refrigerated storage, FIFO controls, etc to ensure the additives are even functional at the point of use any longer. Yes it can be managed, but it's a pretty difficult proposition in most parts of the world where your fermenters don't even have electricity, or stable power grids.
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Post by ning1 on Dec 16, 2016 0:09:16 GMT -5
One can already ferment for a shorter time s w/o using anything additional It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The enzymes they're using are pectinases meant to slough off the outer sugary coating of the beans more quickly, meaning that theres less food for the yeasts to consume, meaning less alcohol is generated to act as the intra-membrane transport system for all the micro components that are generated during fermentation. Devil's in the details here mate - while it's true that the fermentation time is less, it's because there's less food for the fermentation organisms to consume, and they die out more quickly, meaning you get a less fermented product. Again, i can get a less fermented product simply by halting the fermentation process earlier, and it costs less. Also one must consider the supply chain of such an approach - innoculation organisms and enzymes both have very specific temperature ranges they like to live in, and typically are kept cold until the point of use for shelf life reasons. Most fermentation scenarios don't have such things as controlled refrigerated storage, FIFO controls, etc to ensure the additives are even functional at the point of use any longer. Yes it can be managed, but it's a pretty difficult proposition in most parts of the world where your fermenters don't even have electricity, or stable power grids. Sebastian, i suspected the presence of pectinases (or pectinolytic enzymes) and possibly cellulolytic as well as this should assist in breaching the bean membrane. But may be the yeast activity is not compromised too significantly because in the traditional natural fermentation, the sweating from the first two days of ferm is loaded with sugars anyway (instead of being consumed by the yeast). Since we are on the subject of fermentation, I have been seeking answers to what would constitute the perfect fermentation where the expression of the cocoa and the good flavors are maximised. I usually would taste the bean during the last few days of fermentation (yes yes, it is a living thing, I usually spit it out) and have been monitoring the pH as well. But sometimes I feel that the bean is not brown and yet I would have been happy to halt fermentation at that point -- the bean turns brown anyway as it oxidises, sometimes during the drying phase. So back to the question, what would you think should constitute a "good" fermentation? And, is achieving "brown bean" at the end of ferm important (as opposed to at the end of drying)?
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Post by Sebastian on Dec 16, 2016 11:28:43 GMT -5
That, my friend, is the topic of literally decades of advanced research, with hundreds of millions in funding being spent to date. It's an incredibly interesting (and complex!) mix of genetics, agronomics, chemistry, biology, post harvest protocols and processing (and actually one other element that i'm not able to talk about). Not to mention individual preferences (what does 'perfect fermentation' mean anyway? I suspect it's something different for you than it is for me...which is going to make it difficult to pin down precisely!)
You can easily spend the rest of you life (many have, and are) working towards answering this question. There's an incredible amount that's already known (far more than the average joe is aware of), but there remains an incredible amount left to discover.
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rron
Neophyte
Posts: 25
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Post by rron on Nov 5, 2017 10:18:42 GMT -5
I just got to see some beans being fermented. I saw some larve within the mix. Is this common, or is this a moth infestation during the fermentation stage. which i would guess would be present after drying.
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