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Post by ripvanwinkle on Sept 9, 2008 3:47:46 GMT -5
A scientist at CDC told me that there are trace amounts of the deadly Legionnaire's disease bug in most every pond, stream and even in puddles. That's the bad news. The good news is that our bodies can stand a low level of contamination of that disease, and most other pathogens. I guess that's why some bugs are "deadly," most are not, and quite a few are beneficial. So, although we must practice cleanliness, and must design processes so they do not encourage growth of pathogens, a small quantity of the bad bugs is probably not going to bother us unduly.
I am hoping that someone will reveal a source of pathogen test kits. I don't much care if a few bugs are in my chocolate but I want to be sure that they are not too plentiful!
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Post by Sebastian on Nov 24, 2008 5:23:28 GMT -5
problem is - define too plentiful. how much is too much? what t he cdc scientist told you is a bit misleading, in that while it's true the mississippi river probably does have it in there somewhere, you'd have to drink an awfully lot of it to find it...
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Post by jamescary on Dec 5, 2008 20:57:45 GMT -5
So, essentially pasteurizing the liquor is what would be the most effective at ensuring safety? And since the liquor is high in fat and sugar, it might be best to use those guidelines for ice cream / egg nog: 155 F for 30 minutes?
And of course, proper cleaning of everything that came into contact prior to reaching pasteurization.
I'm considering a low + slow roast, maybe even no roast.
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Post by rabarber on Dec 6, 2008 5:04:13 GMT -5
problem is - define too plentiful. how much is too much? what t he cdc scientist told you is a bit misleading, in that while it's true the mississippi river probably does have it in there somewhere, you'd have to drink an awfully lot of it to find it... Indeed you are a bit mislead. The great danger of the legionella bacteria is not the drinking part but when it enters your lungs. Most of the time this happens by the inhalation of mist droplets (aerosols). Nevertheless there are a lot pathogens that really are a treat. In my opinion it's very unlikely that bacteria like salmonella will be killed after pasteurizing for 30 minutes at 155°F. Many of those strains use the fat in the chocolate to as a kind of insulation. They won't multiply but they will not die ether (even after 24 hours). Also don't forget that the pasteurization of the cocoa mass isn't the last step in your chocolate manufacturing. There are simple pathogen (very expensive) kits available, but you always will have to make a choice and your hobby will be very expensive and it will never be a 100% guarantee. In my opinion, a lack of good hygienic practices, will most of the time be at the base of any contamination. That and using unsafe raw materials.
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Post by jamescary on Dec 6, 2008 18:18:03 GMT -5
Also don't forget that the pasteurization of the cocoa mass isn't the last step in your chocolate manufacturing. Thanks. True, the chocolate will not be refrigerated after pasteurization. For now, I'll stick to the standard procedure.
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Post by chocolates on Jul 30, 2009 6:10:43 GMT -5
Hi its really great information... Thanks Chocolates
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Post by ezekiel on Aug 4, 2009 18:21:19 GMT -5
The description of the Barth Tornado Roaster has a good description of the process of sterilizing beans. If you'd like to read it, go to the following link. www.koco-usa.com/pdf/Barth%20Tornado%20Roaster.pdfMy understanding of it is as follows. - Dry the cocoa with heat
- Inject water or saturated steam
- continue roast as normal
If I I a good way to test this, I might give it a try.
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Post by Alchemist on Aug 4, 2009 21:34:31 GMT -5
On a very rudimentary coliform and HPC test, and painting with a VERY broad brush, basic roasting as I outline effectively has a near 100% kill rate. Comparing against some very bad organism (sorry, can't pull the types out right now) kill charts, roasting should only be marginally effective, but the same can be said of e.coli temp/time kill charts, and even on the lightest palatable roast, well below theoretical kill chart rates, I have had 100% kill rates on contaminated beans.
Generally, get your beans from a good source, roast well, watch your cross contamination and you should be fine.
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Post by ezekiel on Aug 5, 2009 8:33:55 GMT -5
Generally, get your beans from a good source, roast well, watch your cross contamination and you should be fine. I think that's some very good advice.
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Post by doclogic77 on Mar 18, 2010 17:45:22 GMT -5
Very good information here. I might be getting ahead of myself but my wife were wanting to start our own coffee and chocolate shop. We were wanting to learn this process to make all of our own chocolate from scratch. With that said, this concerns me. I would have to assume some small chocolate shops do make their own products. Do they all use industrial roasters and conching and refining equipment for not only production reasons but safety reasons? Is it possible to have a small shop and use oven roasting and a large Santha? Would this pass inspections for your shop?
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Post by Brad on Mar 19, 2010 4:33:31 GMT -5
Doc;
VERY few small chocolate shops make their own product.
There are many reasons - the primary one being that its easier to buy chocolate than acquire beans and make it.
There's also a significant learning curve, and some $$ required to purchase equipment specific for griding cocoa beans.
Don't think that I'm trying to dissuade you. I'm not. I've done many things in my career and thoroughly enjoy making chocolate. However, while there is appeal to making your own chocolate, it's not as easy as one would think. I did almost 3 years of research and development in private before opening my first shop and making chocolate commercially.
Choklat is one of only a couple in Canada.
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Post by doclogic77 on Mar 19, 2010 11:23:14 GMT -5
Doc; VERY few small chocolate shops make their own product. There are many reasons - the primary one being that its easier to buy chocolate than acquire beans and make it. There's also a significant learning curve, and some $$ required to purchase equipment specific for griding cocoa beans. Don't think that I'm trying to dissuade you. I'm not. I've done many things in my career and thoroughly enjoy making chocolate. However, while there is appeal to making your own chocolate, it's not as easy as one would think. I did almost 3 years of research and development in private before opening my first shop and making chocolate commercially. Choklat is one of only a couple in Canada. What a wonderful niche...and we are willing to take it slow to learn the process. We do not need to start the shop anytime soon. But I do want to do the leg work and have everything in place. It would be unfortunate to learn the craft and not be able to use it in the shop.
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Post by Sebastian on Mar 22, 2010 17:31:59 GMT -5
Most people do not understand the scope of the microbiological dangers of working with chocolate, and underestimate or discount them.
Most people do not understand how microbiologically dirty raw beans are, or how difficult it can be to kill salmonella.
It's a huge concern to the industry, for it's not a question of if a small scale manufacturer gives salmonella to someone, it's when. Even large companies struggle with this issue, and their microbiological controls are far more advanced than yours (see Hershey, Cadbury for recent examples). Each time this happens, it has a halo effect on chocolate consumers (how many of you were hesitant to buy something with peanuts in it last year when PCA tainted the pnut supply chain? They only touched 1% of the supply chain, but everyone who had pnut products saw huge declines in their sales as a result).
The NCA will be hosting a 3 days session on microbiological controls for the small confectioner, geared very much toward chocolate manufacturer in the near future (it may even be posted on their web site now, i've not checked). I'd highly recommend you consider it if you're doing this commercially.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not a gloom and doom kind of guy, and i want you all to succeed. Understanding this aspect of your production is CRITICAL, and often overlooked because it's difficult to solve for.
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Post by itsallaroundyou on Mar 23, 2010 9:18:03 GMT -5
sebastian, can you point me in the direction of some papers/methods for testing end product chocolate for salmonella? is it as simple as culturing it on agar? I have a few biochemists in my family, and they might be able to do it for me.
thanks, mike
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Post by itsallaroundyou on Mar 23, 2010 11:24:44 GMT -5
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